Kylar

S6E6 Kylar

Jackal: [00:00:00] Hello everyone. Welcome to our new season of Stealth a Transmasculine podcast. I'm Jackal. I'm

Kai: Kai. We're your hosts for the Trans Masculine Podcast. The new season means new questions, and this season focuses on staying connected during these difficult times.

Jackal: Our show focuses on the stories of people who identify as transmasculine and who transitioned either socially or medically before or around the year 2005.

The name of our show highlights two important facts that one, for our generation. We were often told to hide our past and live in underground existence. And due to that, our stories are often overlooked.

Kai: We want our audience to know that we ourselves are part of this generation of trans masculine identified people, and that we value the [00:01:00] experiences inside our trans masculine community.

We want people to know that throughout our lives, each of us has had to navigate issues of disclosure, which have impacted us In many ways,

Jackal: the bond we share as persons of trans experience is precious and lifesaving. These are trying times. Throughout the world, there are groups removing protections in place for our trans and non-binary communities, safety is a real concern for us, particularly our trans and non-binary bipoc siblings.

Kai: We offer links to health and safety resources on our website, trans masculine podcast.com. We also have an incredible mentor mentee buddy program that has connected 88 trans men. If you're interested in becoming a mentor, please reach out to our awesome volunteer Clark. Via the mentoring tab on our website.

Please hold each other dear and stay in touch with us. If you're new to our show, welcome and if you're a follower from a previous season, thank you for your continued support. [00:02:00]

Jackal: As humans, we are always changing and transitioning. As elder trans men, we assume many roles. We get married and divorced. We are caretakers, we are parents.

We are professionals, academics, and advocates. We push for human rights and systemic change.

Kai: We invite our listeners to remember that we are a living community. We are healthy, we are contributing, we have experienced loss and success. We are loved, and we welcome you to our stories.

Sean: Hey, this is Sean Aaron. He, him, his. And I'm here to tell you about them. Boys podcast. I'm the host of them boys podcast, and as a black queer trans man, the podcast amplifies the voices of other trans men of color as we share our transition stories. The podcast not only amplifies the voices of trans men of color, [00:03:00] but it raises awareness and conversations around our lived experiences.

You can listen to the podcast by going to them boys.org/podcast. That's D-E-M-B-O-I s.org/podcast. I hope to have you join us on the next episode.

Jackal: Hey. We're dropping this episode in September, but you know, summer just passed. How's your summer been?

Kai: Ooh. It's been good. This is my first summer where I actually had six weeks off.

I'm gonna lose my job in December. I don't know if I told you that I.

Jackal: No,

Kai: yeah, so the Trump administration, signed executive orders, eliminating school-based mental health.

And while my grant is funded for five years, so another three years, they've only funded the first two and a [00:04:00] half so that stops at the end of this year, December 31st.

And since they're eliminating the funding, it's likely I'll get laid off in December, which sucks 'cause that's the second December in a row, you know, that I'd be off and I've never been laid off in my life before last year. Yeah.

Jackal: And what a, blow to the students you work with.

I mean, I feel sorry for you because that's hard to be, you know, where we're at in life and then have to get another job , but really, what a disservice to the students you work with.

Kai: Yeah. And it's interesting because the issue of school-based mental health is a non-partisan issue.

And it was overwhelmingly supported on both sides of the aisle, but this administration has removed the funding. And the State of Washington put in an appeal and they did respond to our district saying that they got it and that we met the metrics of the grant, which is promising, but I don't count on it at all,

Jackal: wow.

Kai: Is a sanctuary state, I think it's Bondi that just sent this threatening email to a bunch of [00:05:00] states and ours was one of 'em, and the governor responded. So that actually is on my mind. But at the beginning of the break I had a revision, and this is actually a gender related story, so I had a revision to my chest. I've had a couple of dog ears on either side of my chest on the outside of my lats, and I wanted to get a revision.

And I had a really unpleasant experience when I first went. I had an unpleasant experience with this surgeon who essentially said, wow, your chest looks amazing. After I had just told him how I have dysphoria and I've been uncomfortable since '08 and I've had two surgeries and it just been on my mind since, a long time. And then he was saying how great it looked and what a great job, my surgeon, and he'd have to get it approved by the board because it looked so good. And then some people have never even had a first surgery, he said. So I was like, you fuck, you know, and I'm a pretty outspoken person and I just said to him, you know, I guess dysphoria is a very subjective experience.

Yeah. [00:06:00] You know, and I said, and it creates a lot of troubling feelings for me. That's why I'm here, you know? And I'm like, don't have my shirt on, and he's taking pictures of me, you know, and he has to get it approved. So anyway, I left, and then I called up one of my brothers, you know, and I was like rah.

Afterwards.

Anyway, I decided it wasn't worth the appeal and I was just gonna get it done.

And I was like, can I stomach an hour with this person because I want this thing so I don't have to go through a big rigmarole. So I said, yes I can. So I walk into his office, he comes in and it's a procedure where I'm awake, I'm giving lidocaine and I'm awake. And that was a whole nother thing. So he basically said, you know what? I think I recognized your name. I think you've signed a lot of gender affirming care letters, and I didn't know that was you. And the dude was a completely different person. He was collegial, he was respectful. We just chit chatted the whole time and my anxiety went down right [00:07:00] away.

But I was just like, wow, you know, the difference in how he was treating me and like the medical field, it just, dude, you provide gender affirming care. You know, how invalidating it is to tell somebody that everything is fantastic, you know?

Jackal: It's kinda like our last disclosure story about you know, oh, you passed so well, you have nothing to worry about. It's fuck you. You have no idea what I worry about. You know, like you have no idea what dysphoria means.

Kai: yeah. Exactly.

Jackal: thank you for sharing, Kai.

Kai: Yeah. Yeah. And the last thing is that's how my summer has gone is I've been recovering because it took.

Jackal: Oh, I

Kai: I'm doing great, but it's just a process, you know, your body recovering, so that's my

Jackal: can't see this because he's been flailing his arms all over the place, so his surgery must have gone pretty

Kai: It's gonna look pretty good.

Adam: Today's interview is with Kyler Kyler w Broadus is a black trans man that has been a pioneer in the movement as an attorney, [00:08:00] longtime activist, public speaker, author, and Professor. Kyler is known worldwide for his montt garde work in the LGBT and Trans rights movements. He's the founder and director of the Trans People of Color Coalition, the only national organization dedicated to the civil rights of transgender people of color.

Kylar is on the board of the National Black Justice Coalition, where he served as board chair for three years. He also served on the DC Mayor's LGBT Advisory Task Force Committee, and is currently on the board of Directors for Freedom for All Americans. Kyler identifies his social anniversary to be at birth, but his medical transition, he pins at 1990, the same as one of our many jacks. So go check out our website to see what momentous events happened in that year.

Jackal: So welcome to Stealth. We are here with kyler, our first question is always, how did you get to be on the show?

Kylar: You [00:09:00] guys invited me and I'm so honored to have been invited and very excited and I thank you for the work you do because it's important to tell these stories. I think we often get ignored

The scheme and course of things, and so I really appreciate the work you're doing,

Jackal: Thank you. We really appreciate the work that you are doing and have done in your life and career. And yeah, one of the reasons Kai and I even started this podcast was to bridge that generational gap that kind of made us invisible. And having younger people say there's no mentors, there's nobody like me out there.

And we're here, we're just less visible than Transfeminine people. And we wanted to have our stories be told. So we really appreciate you being here with us.

Kai: Kyler, how did you first find out about trans masculine identities?

Kylar: Gosh my, it's interesting. As a kid, I just thought I was nuts. [00:10:00] Especially given the timeframe that I grew up. I was born in the 1960s and really the media focused on Christine Jergensen. We saw, a little bit of Renee Richardson who I've gotten to meeting in my life as well. That's for young people.

That's not an accomplishment, but somebody that you met, that you saw in the media as a kid and then you come full circle as an older person and you get to meet. I don't necessarily agree with her views, but it's just interesting. That breaks barriers and that's all I saw. So there were two things that were perplexing me.

They really weren't like me that I understood, and they were different in color than me. Now because the media, 'cause it was the TV generation, that was hard. So then I began to read [00:11:00] and then I saw in Jet Magazine? And a little bit in essence, small little articles on black trans people, very little passing.

And of course they were not necessarily positive articles. And then in all things, the biggest thing was a tabloid, I found in the grocery store. And it had Billy Tipton. Three things rang about Billy Tipton. He was a musician, trans man, and he had lived within 60 miles of where I grew up at.

Jackal: Wow.

Kylar: So even though he wasn't black, all those things hit home to me.

And then I began to read voraciously about Billy Tipton. And followed Billy Tipton. And then it [00:12:00] all made sense to me and I was not even 14 years old.

And then I had my aha moment that made sense. That's who I was. I didn't need to kill myself, although I didn't believe in killing myself because I was raised in what we call the buckle of the Bible belt of the United States, and I lived in the buckle and we were real religious, so I prayed to God every day that God would fix me. when God didn't fix me, I remembered a sermon that said God gave me the knowledge. To fix myself, and that's where it went

Jackal: Nice.

Kai: Thank you. Thank you. Can you walk us through a little bit of how things went? Off air, you mentioned that you were often seen as a boy, as a young person and throughout your life. And that was before you started medical transition. But would you mind just walking us through a little bit of your, whatever, however you define [00:13:00] transition, Kylar.

Kylar: Well. For me, it did start in my childhood. My father was a World War II veteran, a black man who had gone through lots of things that my parents shared and taught me how to navigate life. And some things I know my parents didn't share that they experienced, but I knew. And then my mother also of that same era who went through a lot of things and they navigated life together. They were very protective but very instructive. They protected me, but they also knew about me. That was something I didn't rightly get right away, but they did because when I look back, they allowed me to be me without resistance as a child. People would come up to them and say, this is your [00:14:00] son. And given their generation and all the persecution they took as black people, they never said, no, this is not our son.

Da. We're going to throw this child away and throw him out of our house. And there was even suggestion. And that my mother did take me, 'cause my father would not have days off from work to a mental institution where it was recommended. 'cause what I had, which has now been diagnosed as what young trans children have, the anger that young trans children have. She took me to the mental institution and they told her, I will never forget this 'cause I was a young six or 7-year-old child that I was just angry and that what they needed to do. And she grabbed my hand and I remember in those old fans skirts and she pulled me around and she said, now we'll take care of this at home. And she. It took me for hamburger and ice cream and, came home and told my dad and they just [00:15:00] did it lovingly. They let me be who I am. And help that throughout my life. Now she got a little scared when I turned 18 and tried to tell me I was a girl. I remember that experience and getting in the refrigerator as I was about to graduate. However there was no protocol transition or anything. I just lived that way. There was no box for me. There was no any of that sort of thing. And there was no calling people trans. And that's where this whole interesting thing of young people talking about there was no non-binary.

'cause there was a non-binary,

I lived a non-binary life, that's what it was.

We called it androgynous.

Was the term at the time, androgyny.

And I usually forget that because when I'm out. We attack each other rather than listening to each other. We do all this word play in the community and where we used to tell [00:16:00] stories and do storytelling when we were gathered in circle, we don't, and then lesbian circle, 'cause that's the community that I came out in because lesbians were more diverse.

But now we have turfs. This, that and the other. And I experienced those too when I came out. Those people were like you're originally a lesbian. And I'm like, where you were 'cause nobody ever called me a lesbian. I never fit in. We do this negative thing to each other. You never thought I was a lesbian when I was a lesbian, so stop that and let me be me. And that was the whole journey. And so I remember this as I went into my early twenties I need my group. I could be with the studs, but I still was different than a stud, which is a lesbian term, but it's just like I was still different.

I would get accosted as we're seeing now with all this negative stuff where people are confused. 'cause I could not go into a women's [00:17:00] bathroom. , My wife would go in before me and say, this is not a man, this is not a man. And as soon as I'd walk in, they'd go, oh, that's a man. That's a man. And it was horrible. And so I would always be accosted by police.

I would strip buck naked. And I did, and I remember being with my corporate workers and and the House of Blues is no longer there on the strip in la but I remember that time I was stationed in LA working and I thought, I won't have a drink. I won't have a drink, I won't have a drink, even a water. I remember thinking

And then I find yeah, of water. When we went out to the nightclub and then I finally thought, okay, I gotta have some water. And I thought, screw, I'm gonna have a drink. Queen Latifah came in, all these stars are in there, everybody's having a good time. Why can't I have a drink? So I decide to have a drink, and then I think I have to go to the bathroom now, and I look and there's the female bathroom and the male bathroom, and my mind said, go to the men's [00:18:00] room. But then I'm like, they know at work what my birth certificate says.

I go to the female bathroom and, oh, was that a mistake?

I got hauled out of there and I stripped buck naked

And the police said, sir, put back on your clothes

go to the men's room.

Kai: Wow.

Kylar: Because

that's I read mail

Kai: Wow I have a question

Kylar: yes, go ahead.

Kai: I remember when I was part of the lesbian community during that same era that the androgynous look was definitely in, and it was like you wouldn't go from one side to the other, butch or fem, or stud. I got pushback, about being too far on the masculine side and did you experience some of that Kyler.

Kylar: Totally because back then I was super stud. Hey man. That was my how I talked, I was, Hey man, how you doing? Hey man. And oh, I got in trouble for using that word because feminists are like, you can't [00:19:00] do that.

But yes, I got in trouble for being too male because. Everyone was androgynous and you're correct. Lesbians wore the uniform, thank you for asking that 'cause it helps nuance. My story is so true and it, you couldn't be too feminine. You couldn't be too masculine.

You really had to be androgenous.

Wear the uniform and

lesbians did that for decades. You had to wear the uniform. And I got in trouble for being too masculine. And then I got in trouble for transitioning and it's just I'm doing me

that is a thing I take through this whole movement because. We monitor each other within the movement. And that's something that I see that we even do worse now than we did then. And then we at least talked or pretended to talk about nuances and differences because that was during the AIDS crisis.

And lesbians tried to come [00:20:00] together with gay men and that wasn't the best matchup. There are issues around that, but now we have rolled a lot of people into this movement

No talking and there are a lot of problems, but we won't even go there.

Kai: Thank you.

Jackal: I just wanna ask about the medical side of your transition. Did you have to go through the therapy thing? Did you like have a doctor that was like, oh yeah, obviously you're male already, so let me just put you on hormones and boom. What was that part like for you?

Kylar: Great question. And that didn't start until I hit 30 something because when you're dating in the pool of women that we were dating in at that time, which were resistant to accepting people, being trans also. Even though it was clear who they were dating, I am a person of no secrets. This is who I am, this is who you're dating. And yet the person I [00:21:00] was dating was my wife. Even though they'll say they weren't. That of who they were dating.

Especially during that era, trans masculine people, some still in relationships with people that call them her. Or she or treat them as lesbians.

Wasn't about to roll that way. It's oh no,

Me. At that time we only had, I think, the two places on the continent that offered medical treatment at the time. had the Canada Clinic that I recall,

We had the University of Minnesota.

So I did travel to the University of Minnesota Clinic

Then you had to go through the Harry Benjamin standards. You had to do two years protocol of therapy. You had to, and I do think there's benefits to doing therapy,

Sadly. I think that's what's missed. [00:22:00] A lot of what's happening now

I do think therapy's beneficial for you, but it's also beneficial mainly to navigate what you're going to deal with in society.

It's not that there's something wrong with the trans person

That you need the therapy to navigate what you're going to deal with,

I think people miss that

Kai: and think a lot of therapists miss that.

Kylar: Thank you. Kai. Thank you. 'cause I'm is gonna get there. I think there are too many untrained therapists out there and they wanna experiment on trans people now. 'cause I can never find just a therapist to have therapy. So I dismiss a lot of therapists because they don't know what they're doing and they wanna experiment on trans people. Excellent point that there are a lot of therapists that miss that and they wanna fix trans people. And that's not the point. It's that trans people need to know how to navigate the other people who really are the problem. [00:23:00] Cause nothing wrong with me.

and I knew who I was, but also, I had a good support base, my mother and my father. That

is so important, whether it's your mother and your father, aunt, your uncle, and it's so important to have good mentors in the community. Now, I had my mother and my father, who always, till the day they died, stood with me. That is important.

Gotta have some grounding or a base and then.

You have to vet therapists.

Jackal: Thank you so much. You mentioned your parents and being black and their experiences, how do you think your social standings did impact your ability to transition or even your fears about transitioning?

Kylar: They didn't, because I think being black is a good practice for, like now all these [00:24:00] people are freaking out about their names being changed. I'm old school black. We didn't know people by their necessarily, what are called government names.

It's interesting to me to watch people freak out about what this man has written on paper. Taking away from them now, while I have helped facilitate this new movement of transgender ness there's nothing anybody can write on paper that's gonna impact my life.

Nothing.

it's a big issue because if you've been through Jim Crow, if you've been through slavery

Is nothing he can do that's going to impact me. Because actually when I started this movement, I didn't have an ID that reflected my gender. There was no way I could get one. Do you see what I'm saying? And black people have lived like that. Black people have had rights taken, rights destroyed. We have been renamed since

We've been called. Several N [00:25:00] words. Then we progressed from the N word to being called Black Americans.

Then we've been called African American, and I stopped

And I was doing another thing yesterday wherein somebody remembered when we progressed to African Americans. I said, oh no, I will not be called African Americans. I stopped at Black Americans

Unless we're gonna call white Americans, Euro-Americans.

I will not be called an African American.

Because you keep renaming US so, most people don't even know back to the trans people worried about their names being taken. The African American people aren't even aware.

That he came in and rolled back an executive order, taken away voting rights,

black people are like, oh, my rights have been taken so many times. I don't even care.

And we need to be aware.

But what I'm saying is we're sadly used to it.

Whereas trans people, nobody should be used to it. But at the same time, we just don't care

Jackal: It sounds like your [00:26:00] social standings have impacted your ability, but it's given you a fortitude and a resilience that other people might not have

Kylar: that's my point

Jackal: because of their generational experience.

Kylar: Exactly the generational experience. It's like I'm gonna keep on going.

Jackal: Hey, so our show is called Stealth. So we always ask our guests, what does stealth mean to you?

Kylar: It could mean a lot of things, but I think what comes to mind is that most people would say people don't see you. But I don't think that's true. I think many people from my generation have had to be in stealth, meaning that sometimes you just can't be visible, but that doesn't mean you're invisible. And I have had to teach that to young people. They wanna be so visible that they don't think sometime like wearing the t-shirt to the bus stop that says, I'm a [00:27:00] trans man.

I say, okay, you can do that. I've never been afraid. I've been out the whole time. Okay. I've never been in.

Have a problem with that, but can you beat everybody's behind

Jackal: right.

Kylar: you can beat everybody's behind at the bus stop, then wear your shirt.

Wrong with that, but are you being smart? Are

you Strategic?

That's the point.

And because I convene this the summer of George Floyd, there was at the same time a trans man in Florida that was killed. So we convened my trans people of color group a march, even though it was during COVID and we did it online with some younger trans men. it ended up just being trans men trying to carry out this march 'cause it was involving a trans man. Who was killed a couple of days after George Floyd by the police in Florida. He had a mental illness. The family called [00:28:00] them to come out to corral him, and they shot the man. Damn.

We convened a call and I got age range on there and my older men came in stealth. People didn't understand that and I was able to get some consensus, although it ended up being hard.

For the understanding that why the older people came in stealth and why the younger people didn't. But there was still not communication. And I don't think we got to a second call

It would've been good 'cause the older men would've come outta stealth

We would've had a communication going.

Jackal: I wanna touch on that a little bit because we're talking about a generational gap, right? In my experience, we were told, and people, especially previous to me, who transition, were told to live a stealth life. You erased your quote unquote [00:29:00] feminine lifestyle. You did not play softball, you played baseball.

You, did not wear dresses at church. You wore pants, you changed every single thing about your history. In order to be a true trans mask person. And that's what I think you're getting at with this generational gap between the men who are being stealth in a situation and a younger generation who's you're just embarrassed about who you are or whatever their line is.

Tell me more about that.

Kylar: You sum it up great. And I love that because there is not grace, we don't give each other grace

Anything.

Think the older men were willing to, I got them on the call.

What I find is that I can work with any generation, but when we don't give grace, and that's what I find, we wanna be competitive, but why are we competitive? It's like younger [00:30:00] people give older people grace. All I hear is this boomer thing, and I heard this yesterday from somebody not in the movement, and that's all I ever hear. But when I explain you know what? We inherited what we got. And then people will back off of that once they realize I'm a boomer. And then they're like, oh. Because it's like they don't think, it's like we did not create, we inherited

So breathe

Think about what you're saying.

It's yeah, boomers inherited from war generations. People, we did not create anything.

So you're attributing what that orange person is doing to all boomers.

Stop that and

then Open up in the movement. Because, yeah, we came in under the Benjamin Standards, which

live, still cut our lives off

Then honestly, we would suffer a lot less stress, in my opinion. Now living, [00:31:00] there's some truth to that.

think about it, however, there's some truth to living the other way.

Jackal: Yeah.

Kylar: there's some truth to both of them.

Don't beat up the people that are living.

Let's all just try to get along there's no competition.

We're human beings. Let's offer each other some grace to try to get along. Let them give me some love and vice versa. That's all I'm saying. But we don't tend to do that. So they were gonna hate on the people in stealth

Jackal: thanks.

Kai: We could ask so many questions. Historically you've been active very long time. You've worked on really key political issues and social issues and what has history taught us Kyler about political movements that target marginalized communities.

Kylar: Woo. My God, Kai, I don't know if I can educate you. Marginalized communities are hard. I honestly think. We see the same things in all marginalized communities, whether they're trans, whether they're [00:32:00] women's, whether they're disabilities communities, and we see overlap in them, and I've been fortunate. When I worked in DC and around the country to work at intersections of the communities, we have to work together because our issues are very similar if not the same. They're nuanced, of course. And I think one, we have to realize there is power in numbers. That seems obvious, but I don't think we do.

And that comes from the issue of infighting. There is always the issue of money. What I mean is the funders that are out there generally fund some of the same sorts of movements. So how do we get it? Where do we get it from? We have to be strategic and smart about that. And then within the movements some of the same dynamics we've just [00:33:00] talked about that I find very troubling. I think we could be very powerful, more powerful movements. If we did what we did earlier in this movement, which is coalesce and work together,

Does that make sense?

Kai: Yeah. Yeah. I think, there's infighting and we eat our own and there is a competitive error for sure. Kyler what are some key highlights and milestones that you can, share with us because there are bright spots.

Kylar: Okay. Bright spots there's so many, good spots. There are lots and lots of good spots. I sadly just think I've been worn out and fatigued. But the good spots the coming together and all the work that we've gotten done in this movement. We've seen more trans people out than we ever imagined when I started this work 30 years ago.

Didn't know if there would be [00:34:00] 10,000 people in the United States or what,

I remember when we started in, in a room just thinking, ah, you know, what do we do?

So that's number one. Number two, we started honestly thinking who would be our allies And we chose the gay L-G-B people, because we were in the LGB movement and we were trans masculine people and we were leading this work.

And I wanna be intentional about that because honestly, the people that have done the work are not getting the attention, and I have real problems with that.

Jackal: Hey let me ask you then. Toot your own horn, Kyler. 'cause you've done a lot of work. Okay. If you want people to give us the attention that we deserve because of the work we've done, do it right now. I want you to be as proud as you can be about the work you've done.

Kylar: Kylar is not built exactly that [00:35:00] way, but Kylar will tell the truth. So Kylar is telling the truth now, and Kyler has just said the trans masculine people

that were a part of the LGB movement that chose to do this work strategically.

And put it together. That's how we had moved this far. So Kyler is tooting his horn

Jackal: You're just masking it in trans mask terminology and the people around you credit for it. I was just like thinking like, is there, like

Kylar: There was a meeting where

And none of us that did this will say that we did this because that's who we are. But at the same time, I'm going to continue to push the trans masculine folks forward because we have been taken advantage of. And it's continued and I've actually the one that if you go to the Georgetown [00:36:00] Journals and then it was taken outta context that people that are the most marginalized in the trans community are people that do sex work and are on streets. That did not just mean trans women, however, that was taken to mean trans women of color. And that then excluded the trans masculine men that were doing sex work

Like me.

Then it was taken and ran with by everybody, and that was the wrap, and that's where we are.

Kai: What might seem like an obvious question, but we're trans masculine folks are not part of the national conversation and a lot of what's happening now and being targeted, it's mostly towards trans-feminine folks. What do you think about that?

Kylar: I have huge problems with that because I have lost many jobs because they target me

purposefully and. Because the greater LG movement allows it. [00:37:00] We were taken out, the people that were leading the trans movement. We're gonna have a good conversation guys. We are just gonna have a real conversation. We were taken out the people that were leading the trans movement. When the gay movement decided it was beneficial for them to bring us in after marriage was won as a wedge issue by the Republicans. So the Republicans wage a wedge issue in 2006, and then we honestly thought, oh God, okay, fine. There's marriage. We knew that was the big gay issue and honestly, I'm glad that have helped with marriage. We're supposed to talk about positive issues as Kai asked though, but we'll go back to that. We'll get back to that. But here's what happened is that they took us all out and while some trans women thought they were lead, it wasn't, I'm [00:38:00] gonna be honest and tell you who the leaders were.

It was myself. Shannon Mentor, Dr. Scout and Paisley Kura, Jennifer Levi, Spencer Bergstedt. We were all trans-masculine people. We were the leaders and shape Shapers and Phyllis Fry of this movement. We're the ones that, and then there were other people, that came in and did stuff. But, And I wanna make sure I'm not forgetting somebody. Paisley, Shannon, Spencer, Jennifer. Those, the mainstays.

Yeah. We lived together, Paisley, Shannon and myself, we were doing everything together. We did every workshop we were like living together for bazillion years. We [00:39:00] created health, we created policy, we created law,

To be quite frank.

Jackal: Impressive.

Kylar: And we put it together and, we got away from the Hiba standards. And we were doing everything. Dean Spade did some, although, he was more invested in his center in New York, the Sylvia Rivera Law Center and creating his baby. But we were the movement

To be real,

and we were creating this new movement.

Okay. And so we were at Creating Change, creating the Movement. When we weren't at Creating Change, we were speaking everywhere we were, right? When we weren't speaking, we were on this, doing this, we're doing policy in DC some people created NCTE, but we were really the backbones of the movement.

Jackal: Seriously you're sharp as attack, that's for sure.

We want to be respectful of your time, so I just wanna move us forward a little bit, but we're really curious about, just [00:40:00] the bonds that you do have and like people who support you

How connected are you to men of trans experience currently? Do you keep in touch with with some people?

Kylar: Yeah. I've unfortunately been very ill the last few years, so I have just tried to take care of myself. But a lot of men of trans experience do reach out to me for support.

I had two great parents

Jackal: do you have people in your life now that are supporting you? Are you accepting support from others?

Kylar: Oh God. These are hard questions. These are very personal and hard because Kyler is learning. Kyler woke up one day and realized he didn't know how to take care of himself.

Kyler has taken care of other people, other things. Organizations, et cetera. But Kyler did not know how to take care of himself. Just, [00:41:00] the basics.

Yeah, I can get up, I can do, et cetera. But yeah it's been a challenge. Physically because, I'll get up and not eat all day. And I think a lot of other activists know this about me 'cause they watched me and then I have people text me.

It's have you eaten today? Da, this that. So no, I don't, 'cause I don't let people in on that level. But a few, but yes, I tried. So the short answer is yes, I try.

Kai: Kylar what tips do you have for allies and for people who love us?

Kylar: Allies. Allies, you are in our shoes. Bottom line, if you wanna be an ally. You have to be the same as us. You're not separate from us, you're the same as us if you wanna be a true ally. So I always tell all allies that. That's the first thing. And then you have to educate yourself as much as possible.

It's not our job to educate you. That's the second thing that if you're going to be a friend to us. [00:42:00] You also have to stand up for us. It's not our job to stand up or to take on everything that comes our way. That's the job of a true ally. And so I think those, and that would be the three things.

Educate yourself stand in our shoes and stand up for us.

Kai: Are there suggestions that you have about ways that folks can check in on us or not,

Kylar: certainly. If you have friends, that's a great suggestion actually, you're making is checking in on

Calling, dropping a line. Hey, how you doing? I see it's a tough time. But you gotta know your friend how to check in with that friend, and some may be offended, some may not. What's the best way, I may say, Kai, Hey, I'm your friend. I'm not sure how to do this, but I know you're trans and we've been friends for. 20 years, I want to be your buddy and check in with you [00:43:00] so you know, I may make a coffee date with him and figure out how to do that.

It takes a little effort. But you would do that with any kind of friend, right?

Why not your trans friend.

Kai: 'Cause there's so much anti-trans stuff flying around everywhere, and it's every day and it's not getting better. I just think that relentlessness, maybe there's a little fatigue so thank you for that.

Kylar: Yes, and thank you for that. And that's not okay, that it's all day every day. That's even worse.

You gotta step it up as friends to say, oh, that's not okay. Kyler you know that I hear this going on or that the president of the United States is doing this,

I have good friends that do that, at least on Facebook.

There is no normal, but that's still, that's not normal for somebody to bash people daily and to make them the scapegoat to something

Kai: Thank you.

Jackal: Yeah.

Kai: Thank you.

Jackal: Hey,

I just have to say it's been an honor to have you on our show. We're gonna [00:44:00] wrap up this part right here and move on to the bonus sections. Thank you so much.

Kai: we just met with Kylar. What was that like for you?

Jackal: You know, I think I'm tearing up.

All of our guests are amazing and have so much important things to share, but this one really touched me. I don't know, am I just feeling sensitive or was this a really particularly touching episode? But for me.

The resilience, the connection with his family, the mom and dad, his dad being his idol. He's just amazing.

Kai: Yeah, I'm so glad that he shared his time and stories with us. I can't even begin to talk about the work that he is done. So we're gonna include a link to Kyla's website so that folks can get in there. But he's been active for over 30 years and he has done so much policy and advocacy and national and grassroots work and is such a force.

Very humble

Jackal: yeah, even tooting his own horn, he worked [00:45:00] around tooting his horn. He is like, this is how Kylar toots his horn. It's just this trans inclusive,

Kai: Yeah. And I think, the issues that Kylar and others have worked on, to help us get healthcare, to help us get married, have legal rights, civil rights, he's been a huge part of that. And what really saddened me was this, ongoing infighting

Jackal: Yeah.

Kai: He's not asking for praise, he's asking for a seat at the table in recognition for their work that he's done and to be slighted is really painful. I mean, that's the thing that really touched me, you know, because he's a force and he's been there and our brothers have been there. Men of trans experience have been there, and black men of trans experience have been there. And he's such an amazing pioneer.

I still have hope, he instilled a lot of hope. That's a big part of what we're trying to convey is that bond that we share with each other, and also we're gonna get through this, historically we have experienced marginalization.

When he was talking about what prepared him [00:46:00] to transition, it's like being a black person, you know,

Jackal: I loved that. Like that? My social standings haven't impacted my ability to transition and then he went on to talk about generationally how it actually did prepare him to transition. That was amazing. I loved that. He's great.

Kai: right.

Jackal: So clear. So clear.

Kai: yeah, definitely like starstruck

Jackal: I am starstruck a little bit as well,

Kai: Yeah, brought me back to certain era and I'm really grateful. How about anything else? Jackal.

Jackal: I think we covered it. I really hope to stay in touch with him.

Kai: Me too. Me too. So, thank you Kyler.

Jackal: And now it's time for adventures and disclosure with Kai and Jackal.

So you have a disclosure story for us today?

Kai: In fact I do. So oftentimes I reflect back and I think, oh, I need to get in touch with [00:47:00] this person or something, you know? And when I was 15 in high school, a freshman I had a nickname. My nickname was. My nickname was also a freshman, people knew my name assigned to birth, but I usually went by a nickname.

I went by red or freshman. And during that time I had a coach, and this coach was named Mr. C, coach C, and he was someone who was lifesaving for me. I mean, he gave us jobs, he coached us to be athletes and better athletes. He taught me a love of running. I had to run laps 'cause I got in trouble a lot.

He loved to run.

Jackal: imagine that 'cause you seem like such a goody two shoes.

Kai: No, no. He also just was a really good guy. In addition to jobs, he was a good role model of masculinity. He was a little odd, a little quirky. He was short, he expressed himself and his emotions and he just did right.

He coached girls high school, you know, and he was really important to me. He [00:48:00] was somebody I stayed connected with from age 15 until I was like 21 or 22. And then I moved away and I lost contact with him. And as I transitioned, I really didn't think about contacting people from my past, especially my high school.

I did not have a good experience in high school aside from the sports. so I decided that I was finally gonna send him a card. I've been thinking about it for years and I was like, I better fucking do it. 'cause I don't know how long he's gonna be around.

So I just Googled him and I found the address that I recognized, and I sent him a letter and I just said, okay, how do I do this? Right? And I just said, Hey, back in the day you knew me as red or freshmen and, I just wanted to write this letter to thank you so much because of these things.

And I said, I transitioned in the mid nineties, and one of the things I said was, going to this school in this place was really difficult for me, you know? And then I said, I transitioned blah blah blah, and then I'm living a really good life and I'm well loved, and you were such a big part of my [00:49:00] formative years kind of thing.

So I just thanked him, you know? And it felt really. Really nice and I don't expect anything in return. And who knows, you know, he may rip up the card or not, but how many times do people actually go back and thank you for something, or express appreciation in general, but hopefully he will see it for what it is that just, I loved him. He was so important. You know, like at a time when home was horrible, you know, school was horrible. I was like, not treated well, you know? And he was just an important person for me and a mentor and a really good role model of masculinity. So, yeah, that's my disclosure story.

Jackal: That's a beautiful story. It just reiterates what a sweetheart you are. I hope you get a letter back from him, but you know, that's not the point,

Kai: even, yeah, I don't even know if he is able to read, I dunno. I mean, I don't wanna be sound ageist. I mean, we're already old, but it's like he's older than me by 20 years, you know, so hopefully Yeah, [00:50:00] hopefully it'll find him well, yeah. Hopefully it'll find him well and maybe it's something that will touch his heart, you know?

'cause he had a big heart. So that's my story.

Jackal: that's a beautiful story. Thanks, Kai.

Kai: Jackal and I wanna remind our listeners that we have a member section. And thanks to everyone who has subscribed, our member section offers bonus questions and personal stories by our volunteers, Adam, and our newest edition Mikelina. A Bipoc Trans Mask sibling Exploring Adventures in Transition.

Subscribing to our podcast helps keep us up and running. Or if you just wanna support us by giving a donation, we sincerely appreciate it. It's only $4 a month to become a member, so go to transmasculine podcast.com and sign up. We don't wanna be gatekeepers. So if you feel that you can't afford $4 per month, please reach out to us via email, transmasculine podcast@gmail.com [00:51:00] considering buying a T-shirt while you're there.

Or if you wanna be cool, like Mikelina and Adam, we especially need a volunteer to handle our social media.

Jackal: Good job today, jackal. Good job to you, Kai. We want to thank our listeners and especially our guests. This show would be nothing without our guests who share their insight, expertise, and heartfelt stories. We absolutely adore you and are forever grateful to you. Stealth captures the living history of men of trans experience.

We recognize that language has its limitations. The words we use to describe ourselves and our community evolve over time and will not represent everyone's experience. We also want you to know that the health and wellbeing of our community is our number one priority. We want to give a shout out to parents who are supporting their gender non-conforming kids.

We support you and love you for supporting your kids. We [00:52:00] want to put our podcast in the spotlight. Thanks for not trolling us, but really is this just another form of trans mask and visibility? We offer links to health and safety resources on our website. We monitor our social media platforms. We respond to feedback from our audience, and we will be accountable when we screw up.

We want you to know that we are just two guys doing this in our spare time and two old farts to boot. The opinions expressed are our own and those of our guests. We do not represent any entity outside of this podcast. Remember, if you're interested in sharing your story, we would love to hear from you.

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Thank you for joining us Until next [00:53:00] time.