Ivan

Photo Credit: Emily Cooper Photography

Ivan Coyote is a writer and storyteller. Born and raised in Whitehorse, Yukon, they are the author of thirteen books, the creator of four films, six stage shows, and three albums that combine storytelling with music. Coyote’s books have won the ReLit Award, been named a Stonewall Honour Book, been longlisted for Canada Reads, and been shortlisted for the Hilary Weston Prize for non-fiction and the Governor General's award for non-fiction twice. In 2017 Ivan was given an honorary Doctor of Laws from Simon Fraser University, and in 2023 they received the first Honorary Doctor of Arts ever bestowed on anyone by Yukon University. They have toured public schools solo around the world for 19 years now, using the power of a personal story to fight bullying and make schools safer for students, staff and parents. In 2024 Ivan will mark 30 years on the road as an international touring storyteller and musician. Coyote’s stories grapple with the complex and intensely personal topics of gender identity, family, class, and queer liberation, but always with a generous heart, and a quick wit. Ivan's stories manage to handle both the hilarious and the heartbreaking with reverence and compassion, and remind us all of our own fallible and imperfect humanity, while at the same time inspiring us to change the world. Ivan's 13th book, Care Of, was released in June 2021 by McClelland and Stewart.

Website: www.ivancoyote.com

Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/ivanecoyote

Twitter:https://twitter.com/ivancoyote

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ivancoyote/?hl=en

S6E2 Ivan

[00:00:00] 

Jackal: Hello everyone. Welcome to our new season of Stealth a Transmasculine podcast. I'm Jackal. I'm 

Kai: Kai. We're your hosts for the Trans Masculine Podcast. The new season means new questions, and this season focuses on staying connected during these difficult times. 

Jackal: Our show focuses on the stories of people who identify as transmasculine and who transitioned either socially or medically before or around the year 2005.

The name of our show highlights two important facts that one, for our generation. We were often told to hide our past and live in underground existence. And due to that, our stories are often overlooked. 

Kai: We want our audience to know that we ourselves are part of this generation of trans masculine identified people, and that we value [00:01:00] the experiences inside our trans masculine community.

We want people to know that throughout our lives, each of us has had to navigate issues of disclosure, which have impacted us In many ways, 

Jackal: the bond we share as persons of trans experience is precious and lifesaving. These are trying times. Throughout the world, there are groups removing protections in place for our trans and non-binary communities, safety is a real concern for us, particularly our trans and non-binary bipoc siblings.

Kai: We offer links to health and safety resources on our website, trans masculine podcast.com. We also have an incredible mentor mentee buddy program that has connected 88 trans men. If you're interested in becoming a mentor, please reach out to our awesome volunteer Clark. Via the mentoring tab on our website.

Please hold each other dear and stay in touch with us. If you're new to our show, welcome and if you're a follower from a previous season, thank you for your continued support. [00:02:00] 

Jackal: As humans, we are always changing and transitioning. As elder trans men, we assume many roles. We get married and divorced. We are caretakers, we are parents.

We are professionals, academics, and advocates. We push for human rights and systemic change. 

Kai: We invite our listeners to remember that we are a living community. We are healthy, we are contributing, we have experienced loss and success. We are loved, and we welcome you to our stories.

Sean: Hey, this. And I'm here to tell you about them. Boys podcast. I'm the host of them boys podcast, and as a black queer trans man, the podcast amplifies the voices of other trans men of color as we share our transition stories. The podcast not only amplifies the voices of trans men of color, [00:03:00] but it raises awareness and conversations around our lived experiences.

You can listen to the podcast by going to them boys.org/podcast. That's D-E-M-B-O-I s.org/podcast. I hope to have you join us on the next episode.

Kai: One of the things that's coming up for us, Jack, is this greeting card celebration, which is Father's Day,

And I know that some of us don't know our fathers, some of our fathers have passed. Some of us were raised by other folks. One of our guests talked about their father and looking up to their father.

And I have a very strained distant relationship with my dad. I've never known him. He doesn't really, he loves me, I love him, but he doesn't really know me at all and hasn't really taken a great interest in my life or made [00:04:00] lots of efforts to engage with me. And he happens to be in the hospital right now and he's 94. And I'm thinking a lot about my relationship with him, as you do. And the possibility that he may die, which he will you know, eventually. But, as Father's Day comes up and thinking about my relationship with him, how different it is, and, there are things that he taught me.

Like values, particularly around work ethic and things like that. Loyalty to the family that I think are great. And I think there were other things that I don't appreciate as much. How about you?

Jackal: Before we move on, to me, Kai, I just want to say, we've talked a lot about fathers over the years that we've been doing this podcast, and I remember you saying, you did look up to your dad at one point when you were little I think we all do, right? There's this part of us that we want our dad's validation.

Who we are. We look up to them so much. And then there's also the moment when [00:05:00] I think you said your dad had done this, and I know, for me, it was a moment too when your father first calls you son or introduces you as his son, and our heart goes to our throat kind

Kai: Yeah.

Jackal: And then there's still the piece that's unhealed, right? There's big triple whammy within there that's

Kai: Yeah. Yeah. Like thinking back, I used to watch him shave, and how fucking cool that was. And I used to imitate that, in my bathroom with my door closed, nobody could see me, and I thought that was cool. That type of. Big protective, definitely like generationally, baby boomer must earn money and take care of things, and definitely like traditional quote unquote gender roles, I think I also knew he had it pretty good.

You have that sense, that the guys pretty good. And I think the thing that was crushing was that, that. You're talking about, like looking up to someone and also just, the not showing up, and also that difference, there came a time, [00:06:00] it was probably around puberty where it was like, the girlhood, definitely there was a change in how we, just dropped off, but I think part of it has to do with puberty. But, I, I think. Lots of grace to my dad, like I think considering his experience and background, 'cause a lot of our dads had a really hard childhood.

Jackal: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. If you want to go to me then, like I don't talk about my biological dad too much because it's just a different relationship and he passed away. He wasn't part of my growing up life since I was in like the second grade or something like that.

But I'll tell you, and I think I've mentioned this before, I'm not sure on the podcast or not, but maybe to you, the first time I met my stepdad who wasn't my stepdad at the time.

It was the first date that I had ever seen him. Take my mom on, although they had been dating in the summer. I think I had been visiting my grandparents that summer and I came back and I was a super happy child, right? Like I was a super outgoing, loving [00:07:00] child and I was very excited to meet this man that my mom had been dating.

He knocks on the door, I throw the door open and I basically throw my arms open wide and I say, hi, my name is. Previous name, and I love you. And he looks me dead in the eye and he said, I don't love you. And that was. Devastating. That was shocking to me. I was seven. It's like, how do you I don't, it, this is just goes to the generational thing and having grace, like I did not have grace for him in that moment at seven years old.

I had to develop Grace for him later on. Yeah sure. His, like you can say like his generation, his. Growing up being supposed to be a very stoic man, you don't show emotion. You don't say, I love you, you don't like, do those things. You also in, in my adult child mind is you also, there's other ways to say that, thank you would've been fine.

Kai: Yeah, [00:08:00] that's thank you. That's so sweet. So happy to meet you.

Jackal: I'm happy to meet you, whatever, like to say like straight up to a child who's like just trying to be friendly. I don't love you.

Kai: It's a rejection, 

Jackal: it was so severe. And then I spent the next, what, 10 years of my life with that man, 11 years.

We, we were a family and that was fucking hard. That was really hard for me, and it took me a long time to heal from that, I did not consider him my dad. I did not, I, like I called him Jerry until. God, probably until I was in my thirties or forties, after I had transitioned 

Kai: it would've been a nice moment for your mom to pull you aside and just say, it's so great, you're excited, but it's a boundary thing. Loving someone, you were, what you were trying to convey to him was how happy you were, to meet him and, all these things, and

Jackal: mom wasn't the greatest at

Kai: I know exactly

Jackal: my mom actually did try to do that, but she did it in a way that was, [00:09:00] instead of validating me, it was defending him. And so there was no,

Kai: Yeah. No.

Jackal: It was tough. Like it was, I mean it traumatized me 

Kai: there are ways they really could have played that out a lot, 

Jackal: there was opportunities there

Kai: yeah, definitely. Definitely.

Jackal: I have to tell you, this is what I wanna end our banter with if we can. But if you have more to say, please do they, my mom and dad have both passed away and they wanted their ashes mixed together. So that's how we did the burial. So my mom passed away in 2020.

My dad passed away in 2022, so three years ago almost. To the date you know, very soon here. And I did the eulogy and one of the things that I said is Hero is the name for father on every child's lips. And I believe that, we learn about their humanity later. But when you're growing up, you [00:10:00] see your father as the hero, whether they follow through on that delivery or not. That's the kind of image I have of childhood relationship to father. 

Kai: Interesting. Yeah, I do think there's so many things happening and, generational things and their own family history and all that stuff. And I know it's likely that our parents did the best they could considering, and I hope that for people, I really do.

And I don't have ill will about any of this, with my family. I just think my dad did the best he could. I think that we both missed out on something, yeah. And I'm glad you were able to, you really showed up for both your parents there.

Yeah. 

Jackal: Yeah. Part of that healing is having to show up for yourself. We are experts at this. We are living our authentic selves and we have to heal the traumas that, controlled us before. We don't have to live in that suffering. And I don't, I didn't, I was like, I don't wanna live in [00:11:00] that trauma. So I need to figure out a way to heal myself. Whatever my mom did, whatever my dad did or didn't do, I can't control what they say they're sorry for. I can only forgive them because I forgive them, right? It has nothing to do with what they do on their side.

Kai: Yep. That's a good point. That's a really good point. So thanks Jackal, thanks for sharing.

Jackal: Yeah. Thanks. Thanks Kai for bringing it up. Now I'm gonna go home and cry.

Kai: I know thanks to all the dads I think trans dads, so many of us are really good dads and really good role models. And I hope y'all had Happy Father's Day, if that's what you call yourselves, but yeah. Okay.

Jackal: Thanks.

Kai: Thank you.

Adam: Today's interview is with Ivan Coyote. Coyote is a writer and storyteller, born and raised in Whitehorse Yukon. They are the author of 13 books, the creator of Four Films, six stage shows, and three albums that combine storytelling with music. Coyotes [00:12:00] books have won the re-lit award.

Been named a Stonewall Honor book, been long listed for Canada Reads and been shortlisted for the Hillary Weston Prize for nonfiction and the Governor General's Award for nonfiction twice in 2017. Ivan was given an honorary doctor of law from Simon Frazier University and in 2023 they received the first honorary doctor of Arts ever bestowed on anyone by Yukon University.

Coyote stories grapple with the complex and intensely personal topics of gender identity, family class, and queer liberation, but always with a generous heart and a quick wit. Ivan's 13th book "care of" was released in June of 2021 by MacLean and Stewart and their new one person show "playlist" premiered in February of 2024.

Coyote's Tranniversary is 1993, the same as Matt. So go check out our website to see what momentous events happened in that year.

Jackal: [00:13:00] So welcome back to Stealth, a trans-masculine podcast. We're here with Ivan. How are you doing today, Ivan?

Ivan: I am great jackal. How are you? 

Jackal: I'm good, thanks. 

Ivan: Yeah,

Jackal: And hi, Kai. Ivan, we go way back. I don't even remember how long we've known each other, but do you wanna give an our audience an overview of how we've 

Ivan: that we met in 

Jackal: time we saw each other?

Ivan: We met in Vancouver, Canada in the mid nineties at some point before you moved to Seattle, before you transitioned.

And I would even go so far as to say that maybe we met at a party on the third floor of that building that used to be at the corner of Charles and commercial.

Jackal: That's. 

Ivan: does that ring a bell?

Jackal: That's specific. Yeah, I remember what you're talking about. Yes, I do. Crazy. Crazy thanks for being here. It's been such a long time.

Kai: I would just say that is the most precise memory we've had, so that's pretty cool and it's [00:14:00] 

Ivan: and a curse. Am I right though, Jackal? Am I right though? That's what I remember. But that doesn't mean that's what happened.

Jackal: I think my memories are a little bit more vague because we were both involved in political action back then and,

Ivan: Were you in the squatter? 

Jackal: Yeah. 

Ivan: then we go back even farther than, oh,

Jackal: Yeah,

I was one of the squatters. Yeah,

I was 

Ivan: And the Francis Street Squats. Okay. So then we go way back to, I wanna say 19 when I was dating. They've changed their name now to Sid, but, I would say it's more 19.

Oh.

Jackal: Yeah. The Francis Street squats were, I think the 19.

Ivan: 89 90.

Jackal: Yeah, exactly. 19 89, 90. That's what I remember. So yeah, we were way involved in the Vancouver

Ivan: Maybe I didn't meet jackal

Jackal: Yeah. Yeah. That's right. You knew me. You knew me before. Yeah.

Ivan: I think I've placed everything, so Yeah. Yeah. I still know some of those cats from those Francis Street squats, eh?

Jackal: Crazy. I looked that stuff up. It's on [00:15:00] YouTube.

Kai: that's the way back machine.

Ivan: Magically defeating all odds.

Kai: It's nice to see you again, Ivan. So thrilled to have you here today. I met you after you were Ivan. I think I met you in the mid nineties, and I was wondering how did you learn about trans masculine identities, Ivan?

Ivan: I would have to say how did I learn about other people's trans masculine identities? I would have to say really began for me in Seattle, the first like actual trans man that I ever met that I knew would've been Billy and Jack, and then I met Spencer. I was going through your like, previous like guests and this morning and I had quite a, like Ivan Coyote, this is your early life and going to Seattle

Jackal: Right.

Ivan: and I had just a series of girlfriends and manner of hookups in Seattle. And I wanna say that was again, back in oh [00:16:00] 88, 

Kai: What was it like to meet them? What was it? What was the experience like for you? Just about that concept. Like I didn't know, many of us didn't know that trans mask folks really were a thing, or that one could, however you define transition, whether that was possibility. 

Ivan: yeah. I can't remember what I knew or didn't know.

I knew I felt an affinity and yet not right away I was thinking about it because I woke up so early this morning and was looking through and I was thinking about, just the friendship narratives of all of those threads, of that time and all those folks and who's around and who's not around anymore.

And Bear. I was just thinking about all those folks and I was thinking about. Finding or being given, I think by Billy or somebody gave me a how to pass as a man pamphlet that Spencer put together in, I wanna say 1989 or something like that.

And I would love to just for the history of it [00:17:00] all, read that, but I remember at the time reading it and thinking, I don't think, I don't think this is for me, I'm not a trans man. I'm something else I don't wanna pass as a man.

If it meant like following what the, I mean there was, you have to put this in context.

If there's youth trans us transits, trans transmor ions of us. Out there, you have to put it in the context of the time and how dangerous it was to not pass back then in a way. Here we are fully again for different reasons, be it being dangerous to not pass.

But we were so few and far between. I remember just re it was like, sit on the bus, take up space, interrupt people, spread your legs.

Jackal: Oh my God. 

Ivan: yeah. 

Jackal: Oh my 

god, 

Kai: There's no way.

Jackal: So scripted, right? Oh my God.

Kai: And then the east [00:18:00] coast version of that was khaki pants and belts and brown, a certain, inch of belt and things, which I never could do.

Ivan: Yeah, I remember reading somewhere these are good collars for us to wear. Like you should have a button. I never liked a collar that buttoned down. I never liked those buttons. And I remember reading somewhere like a button down was a really good thing to do, like button down and a, or like a golf tees 

Kai: Oh yeah, those are, yes. My work drag. 

Ivan: make sure your shoes match your belt or something like 

Kai: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not good at that either. So we're talking a little bit about the time and context and back then Ivan, you're talking about when you changed your name and however you define transition. Can you talk to us about the process of like, how you came to be Ivan and what that was like for you back then?

Ivan: I think there was mushrooms involved actually. And it was at a party and somebody was like a, it was like a role playing like a leather party. And I was in the process of starting to really publish stuff [00:19:00] and I was digging around for a nickname. For a pseudonym.

And so I just came up with this Ivan Ivanovich, yeah. Anyway so I think. And I remember who I was dating. Yeah, we went to this party and met a bunch of people as Ivan I changed my name for the party, and then they just started calling me that and just stuck and I liked it. And so that's how it began. And I wanna say that was 1992.

Jackal: How do you think your social standings I think you come from a pretty working class background from the Yukon, and other things impacted your ability to shift into, whatever. You're not, okay, so you're not transitioning in the classic form back in the day as that was scripted. But you definitely, as far as I know, identified very male esque. You passed really well as a boy male even without [00:20:00] hormones and things like that. So what do you think your social standings, how do you think your social standings impacted your ability to transitions, your fears, your excitement about transitioning, anything like that?

Ivan: Interesting. Yeah. Again, not getting too I don't know, prescriptive or stereotypical. I grew up as the oldest daughter at the time of of a working class man who had working class brothers. And I think had I had an older brother, I would've maybe had different socialization, but I didn't have an older brother and I was, I would say I was trans, or non-binary, but maybe more trans, I don't know like right from the very, very beginning. Like I never, ever, I don't have that story and I know some trends. Folks, trans, masculine folks do, of being very girly or being a femme or I'd never had that. I was always coded as a young little boy. My dad took me to the shop. I was really into that stuff. I was not into girl stuff at all. It's only been [00:21:00] like, since I turned 50 that I've truly embraced my love of the color of powder pink. I basically like out of hand, rejected any sort of feminine clothes pastimes toys ever since I can ever remember. There wasn't a lot of ambiguity about my gender identity, even as a very young kid.

Jackal: Great.

Ivan: And then I think growing up. I dunno. I guess if you look at stone butch blues, I feel like there's a part of trans masculinity that has like a solid working class basis. Maybe that's more of a white thing. I'm not sure I'd have to think about it, but certainly like the trans masculine role models that I had were not super upper middle class. Like I wasn't wanting to be Prince whatever, I was more in the Leslie Feinberg type of role model. And I think to answer your question more specifically, I think like coming from a working class background and being very familiar with tools and [00:22:00] growing up in my dad's shop and being taught how to drive a truck with a trailer when I was 13, I think he had me on the forklift probably when I was 10 or 11.

I learned how to weld. I learned bolt identification. It wasn't until I went to electrical school in 1992 that I realized that some cis assigned men didn't know the right end of a fucking hammer or couldn't saw a 90 degree angle on a two by four in my family, that would be 

Jackal: unheard of.

Yeah, 

Ivan: It just wasn't a thing like like maybe we knew somebody like that, but it would be some guy that my mom worked with and nobody would've liked him. I think I was like male coded enough that I didn't have to, and I had those you're right. It's weird because I guess we'll just say this for people who don't, aren't familiar at all with me. I've never, with the exception of a little a little jaunt with that testosterone cream for a couple of weeks that somebody gave me that I think I lost when I was like [00:23:00] living in my van, I've never taken testosterone.

I do have raised levels of testosterone in my system and I know this because of later medical testing for that and other things. But anyway, yeah, I did look remarkably, quite easily, like a 17-year-old Irish kid. Yeah. When I went to,

Jackal: you still do.

Ivan: I, now I look it's weird. I, 

Jackal: Okay, now you look 23.

Ivan: I told you I had filters on this Zoom call. Yeah, no I don't pass as much as a man now as a 56-year-old being because I think if I was more male and this gray haired and old, I think, I don't know. I got sir and young manned all the time, and now I would say I get mamed more than I would like. So I think age has erased a little bit of that. Depends where I am too. Keeping in mind I'm in a town where everybody knows me right now too, [00:24:00] so I don't know, 

Jackal: hey, so that brings up a good question because you're in a town that everybody knows you. And so you can think of this as back in the day or anything. Our show is called Stealth, so we always like to ask the question, what does stealth mean to you

Ivan: In my own personal life.

Jackal: in your personal life? In your reaction to it. People have a visceral, anti reaction. Some people are like, I've lived stealth my whole life. Whatever you want. 

Ivan: I know a lot of trans, especially now, I wanna say, especially since care of came out, the letters in 2021 I know a lot of stealth, trans, masculine folks . One of them that I just got recently is it's a dude who's like working on an oil rig somewhere in Alberta, small town Alberta. And has to essentially be like a never nude because which is very difficult when you're like bunking with dudes and bunk houses and whatever. And I don't know what the showering, [00:25:00] I know that he has I know that he has some real fears. And one of the first trans men I ever met, was totally stealth at work as an electrician, I believe for many years and I remember like him having issues with that because he had to worry about being caught, being found out. Like when he had to have a hysterectomy, he had to make special arrangements with HR to like, not write down anywhere what he was going for. And there was parts of his file that had to remain see sealed.

So I guess, I think I've always had a lot of compassion and empathy for stealth trans men. I have never, ever been, ever stealth. It still says f on my passport. I had an, I was asked by Barbara Finley she's part of Lawyers Against Transphobia. I think she would identify as an old dyke last time I talked to her. But she's always been super, super trans positive. And I remember her asking me years ago if I'd be part of a case against a Canadian, the federal [00:26:00] government to allow people to change their gender marker to x and I considered it because I do feel that's the most accurate.

But I remember saying, no, I don't wanna be identifiable as trans in my documents. I don't wanna be easily identifiable or like able to be like pigeonholed in that way in a doc. I said, because what if I wanna go to, a country to tour one time? Who knows where I'll get invited? And it was true, I did get invited to Malaysia and I think that might have been an issue at the border going into Malaysia because it's illegal to be, and I remember even joking to Barbara saying, what if America loses its mind?

I might have to go and protest in the streets and I don't wanna be thrown into a men's prison or them go X and have some border guard or cop deciding like where I'm gonna be detained or how I'm gonna be detained. So leave it F I said, and now here we are. Yeah. So I'd have to say. I've always had a lot of empathy and compassion for folks in their choices [00:27:00] around that.

I've also thought to myself like, because I passed for so long without any testosterone, I always thought, like, when things got really rough, I always thought to myself like, fuck, three or four months on tea, just get rid of a couple of things. Maybe drop my voice a tiny little bit, even the slightest whiff of some facial some substantial facial hair.

And I would disappear to all these fucking rednecks anyways,

But I'm too vain about my hair, to be honest with you. No you just gotta see my mom's side of the family, like my cousin Dan went bald by the time he was 17. If I ever looked at testosterone, it'd just be like that. No, look, I'm a Leo for God's sakes. I,

I, 

Jackal: you have some nice hair. 

it. 

Ivan: I've got wicked hair not to brag, I know this is radio, but, 

Kai: Yeah, you do. No, and there's

Jackal: exist anymore, by the way. This is a podcast.

Kai: some of us are very concerned about losing our hair. So we take [00:28:00] drugs like some, like there's udol and Finasteride that you can take orally. That

Ivan: Don't even tell me this, Kai. I might have to redo my whole, 

no,

Kai: that'll, yeah, I, know. I'm just fueling the rumor that we recruit.

Ivan: Okay. Honestly, I feel I don't wanna get all I don't know where you guys are at with the spirituality these days, but I really, I feel like I got signs from the universe. That was not my path and I got them very early on and I listened to them

'Cause 

Jackal: I think that's a great. 

Ivan: were coming from a bigger place than me.

Jackal: I like it. I think that your story is you and you uniquely, and I think that it really represents part of our community. So there you go.

Kai: So we're talking about the current political climate and can you talk us through a little bit about what it was like when you changed your name compared to now? .

Ivan: There's a name change law that's just recently on the books, sadly, by our NDP, our new Democratic Party, which is supposed to be to the left of the liberals, which would be [00:29:00] comparable to the Democratic Party in the States. I would say the liberals, although. What Democratic party in the States? You could say right now. no, changing my name. I'm never gonna change my gender marker. Having watched this all go down and see, the thing is that I've always maintained we like to think the world likes to think that Canada is so much more liberal or fair-minded.

And like I live in Canada and I remember in 20 17, 20 18 going to Southeast Asia on tour I was a guest of the Canadian. Embassies in, I did 56 gigs in 26 days in 11 cities, in 10 countries in Southeast Asia. And I was in Laos the day that the Canadian government announced that they were going to cover gender affirming surgery and so that news reached us as I was like [00:30:00] sitting down to a meeting with a non-governmental organization run by L-G-B-T-Q mostly t mostly trans-feminine folks in Laos and that day we had a couple meetings and we had a dinner, and then we had an event at night and there was some karaoke and it was pretty hilarious. And everybody got a little bit in their cups as well, if I remember correctly. And I think I got proposed to marriage like, I wanna say 10 times 

Kai: Wow. 

Ivan: gorgeous latian trans women who wanted to move to Canada so they could get all their, and I remember saying in this meeting with all these Canadian bureaucrats in the meeting, 'cause they were, it was right when Justin Trudeau had been elected actually.

So it must have been 2017. So we were coming out of 11 years of Stephen Harper, who was our conservative prime minister and not a friend to the queer community, although there's rumors about him. But anyway I remember saying to all [00:31:00] these like Buddhist, Laotian, trans people and queer people at this meeting, like you think that Canada's really, and yeah, don't get me wrong, this is great news, but everything the government gives you, the government can take away. And we never, the government never gave us these rights outta the kindness of their heart. They gave it 'cause we fought for it.

In a Buddhist country, the words fight and scrap or they have a different context in their religion.

They have just a different sensibility. There was a reaction to this word fight that we have to fight for our rights and and that we had to do that in Canada and I think they were really disappointed in that there wasn't this country where everything was just okay.

And so there's been some, there's been some wackadoodle stuff happening in Canada too. And I'm not trying to take away from as just as old friends, which I think, I hope we can say old friends. The three of [00:32:00] us. I am worried about all of you and just between you and me, I actually set up a cot. In my crawl space, so I have an extra place for people to sleep or I could sleep down there so I have a, like we're buckling down here too. And we don't know. Trump is saying he's going to, he wants to annex us.

Jackal: And, Greenland, yes. 

Greenland. Yeah,

Ivan: I thought he wanted to buy Greenland.

Kai: I it's hard to know.

Jackal: he the Gaza Strip,

Kai: yeah. And he wants your whole country to be the 51st state. 

That's, 

Ivan: And he kept, I don't know if he's done it with Mark Carney yet, because Trudeau has stepped down and Mark Carney's taken over as Prime Minister and called an election in Canada for April 28th. But I don't get offended very much 'cause I'm not a super rah Canadian nationalist.

I'm more sympathetic to the struggle of indigenous people who have lived on Turtle Island for 14 to 20,000 years than I am. Like rah Canadian. That said, every time he called Justin Trudeau, [00:33:00] governor Trudeau,

Jackal: Oh my God.

Ivan: I was ready to kill.

It was so disrespectful. And he did it on purpose, of course, governor Trudeau to like he had already annexed us, and oh, anyway,

changing my name. I'm glad I did it later than you'd think. I don't think I legally changed my name till 2014 was getting a divorce and going through a bunch of paperwork and I had to basically change the mortgage documents and had to pay 700 bucks to change 'em once.

I didn't wanna cha pay 700 bucks because I'm too cheap and pay 700 bucks again. So I changed my name, got a divorce, took over the mortgage, like it was a big 2014 was a big year, and I'm glad I did it back then and I'll probably never do it again and I'll probably leave my gender marker as f forever as, as well. I'm really glad I never changed because I think they're just turning people away with XS in their passports

Jackal: Wow. 

Ivan: Yeah.

I'm not safe to cross the border right now. And I'd probably get turned back or [00:34:00] hassled or, yeah. Yeah. There was a woman here, cisgender, straight pretty from a well-heeled family. I don't know her, she's younger than me, but I know her family. She was just detained for 15 days. She was moved in shackles in the middle of the night to a privately owned incarceration center somewhere in Arizona. She wasn't allowed to call . It was just, there's crazy shit going on. And I just want you to know, like I know neither of you voted for that motherfucker. I'm ready to pick up arms and fight for you

i'm sorry.

What's happening? It must be so scary. I hope you both stay safe.

Kai: Thank you.

I think, my anxiety is rising as we consider reality right now. And you, there are differences of course, because you're not governed by Trump and what's happening now. But, and you talking a little bit about how there's some similarities between our countries. What's it like for you now when the issue of trans topics [00:35:00] comes up? What's it like for you

Ivan: Trump has been so dismal, like watching, it's been so scary. Before Trump was inaugurated, we were well on our way to ha to, to not we, me, but Canada was well on its way to electing Pierre Olivier, who's, like Trump light and maybe a tiny bit smarter, but. Equally as repugnant

Said terrible things about indigenous people, anti-woman, he's dog whistling to the far right and the anti-abortion folks.

This is what I mean. We're always one election away from these. Like you don't get a right. Entrenched like what, look, what Trump's doing right now. He's dismantling all of it, right? 

Jackal: Trying 

Ivan: Yeah, so we were, until Trump was inaugurated, we were well on our way. And even my uncles, just because of tax and because they hated Trudeau so much carbon tax and they were gonna elect pvi.

They were gonna vote, they were gonna vote with their. Because of their tax dollars, because they thought he would put more money in their pockets, some of my uncles. [00:36:00] And I was constantly having scraps with them. And now both of them, both of the ones that I talked to about that kind of stuff anyway, they're both gonna vote liberal.

They're gonna hold their nose, they said, and vote liberal and like poor them, right? And I'm like, what do you think I've been doing for 30 years?

Cry me a river? 

But we're not so far up that down the river from that or up the river from where you are. Luckily for us, Trump has been, it's been so disastrous, so quickly and it's taken this like undeniable inarguable turn to outright fascism.

And then with this annexing of Canada thing. Like I've never seen Canadian we weren't flag waivers in the same way that I find in it's ingrained in American culture, even people who should know better I think are like all Americas the best, the greatest country in the world or whatever. And it was like, the rest of the world is actually no, you're 79th in education and your infant [00:37:00] death rate, you're 56th 

Jackal: Yeah. 

Ivan: And you're absolutely not the best country in the world. But anyway, I've never seen Canadian nationalism like where it's at right now. I don't know if you've heard elbows up, it's a hockey term. I've heard that Canadians, like he's, I don't like what's the vibe towards Canadians right now? He said so many brutal things. And we're matching his tariffs with our tariffs. 

Kai: All All I can think about is I'm so sorry. That's my thoughts towards Canada. I hope it doesn't travel north. You are fine on your own. You're doing better than we are.

Ivan: well, Michael Moore's re-envisioning of the maps like here. What if Canada annexed, what is it? Washington Oregon and California.

And maybe there's a few. And then they'll be like, look, you'll get rid of all these Democratic voters. These people can still be US citizens, but they'll access Canadian health.

There's a whole plan. I don't know. I don't know.

Jackal: God.

Ivan: Yeah.

So anyway, who [00:38:00] knows? What's it like? I did school shows as a trans storyteller. I even made it into a couple of American schools. I did school shows. I've performed since 2000 till 2020. So 20 years. I performed for 850,000 middle and high school students on five continents. In almost every province and territory in Canada. And I don't do school shows anymore. You could not pay me enough right now to walk into a high school. I still do a lot of teachers conferences, keynotes and that kind of stuff, but I don't walk into a gymnasium with 800 kids. No fucking way. It's not safe. There's been such anti-trans backlash and it started the day he was elected in 2016 in Canada. It just started with fear because he went, he made all those statements in 2016 and I don't know if people just don't remember, but he went after the [00:39:00] Muslims first.

Remember he passed all those laws to like harangue people from certain Muslim countries. And three days after he was inaugurated, that's when he said, we are going to destroy trans ideology. We are going to do it via their documents. He said that in 2016, I've got the article, the quote somewhere I've used it. That was of course chilling, I think to some, to trans people, if you remember. Do you remember that? You must remember that. Yeah.

Jackal: I was in a different country at the time, so no, I don't personally 

Ivan: Oh, you really get around , where were we in 2016?

Jackal: Mexico. I was

Ivan: Oh, sweet. Okay. Yep.

Kai: I remember I,

I was very far away. I was buffered. I was way down in Hawaii, but

it was definitely something I recall. That was a horrible time.

Ivan: yeah. So I remember that and I remember just this opening up my email inbox and my Facebook inbox and just this fear mostly at that time from trans parents of trans youth. What's gonna happen to my kid? And yeah. And so [00:40:00] here we are. And I guess in a way at least everybody else sees it for what it is now, which is genocide.

It's an attempt at genocide. It's both barrels. There's no one who's even vaguely paying a tiny little bit of attention could deny the fact that there's an all out war on trans people happening right now. It's not just in the States, it's in the uk. It's in the other countries but yeah, I'm not safe. I'm not safe to do a high school because all of those people who voted for this have kids and those kids are all emboldened. I know this is in Canada, right?

I know of schools. One in the Surrey school district where I'm, I have a long-term friend who's a teacher there, a drama teacher.

So she knows everything that's going on, literally all the drama. She was the, like the Soji, the sexual orientation, gender identity, the pride club or whatever, like the, one of the organizers or Soji lead, like the teacher [00:41:00] organizer. And the kids have said we don't even want a pride club right now.

We're not going, you can have a meeting, but we're not going, and that's like in a school in Canada

Jackal: Yeah. That's scary.

Ivan: because, things are so sketchy. And then I get, of course people like, oh, you don't do school shows anymore. Don't you care about those kids anymore? I'm like, yeah, I care about those kids enough that I want to stay alive so that I can con continue to do the work that I can do working with teachers.

But i've done my time in the trenches and I know my own safety levels and my own, like my own health requirements, my own blood pressure.

Kai: I remember you, you sharing like the conversations you had with young people and really enjoying reading and are you still getting contacted by younger folks?

Ivan: Yeah, and I'm working at a university and I'm openly out trans person on campus, so I work with trans students, they're post-secondary students. I'm gonna be [00:42:00] having a hand in like taking a look at the Soji educational guidelines for the school district in the Yukon because I grew up with the person who's the child advocate and who's works for the Yukon Territorial government.

And, I have my hands in all kinds of pies. I just don't wanna go and stand in front of a gym full of 800 kids for one thing. Kids just aren't that much fun to perform for anymore

Jackal: hey, so you're touching on a lot of things here for me, and one of them is how clear it is that we need to stay connected. As a man of trans experience we share a really special bond. It feeds a lot of it, it nourishes us. How connected are you to other men of trans experience? How connected are you to people you knew pre-transition, although I don't know if you even used that word for yourself. Tell us about that.

Ivan: I think connection is the, antidote to [00:43:00] fascism.

Yeah, I do think connection is the antidote. Antidote. I know there's one trans guy that I work with. Yeah, I would say I know most of the men who are in trans, who are in town. There's a lot of non-binary folks. I am a bit older than most of them and I've, I guess my challenge is like there's queer Yukon Society, which is currently undergoing imploding right now due to, I would say lateral violence.

But among other things so there a lot of tr trans-identified folks in this town anyway right now are non-binary or trans-masculine or trans-feminine. A lot of non-binary folks, they're much younger than me. There are a few, my friend he's my ride or die.

We went to high school together, like we played, we played floor hockey together and so I would say those connections are very important to me. I also live in a town that does not afford me the privilege of only hanging out with just queer people.[00:44:00] 

And I work with a lot of straight people.

I work with a lot of cisgender people, but I'm also very fortunate that I work very closely with a lot of indigenous people. And my connections in all those forms are extremely important to me. I will say this where I'm situated I guess as a writer and as a performer and having a certain amount of cultural capital, it's a barrier for me , I don't access any of the services at Queer Yukon Society.

I'll donate to them, I'll show up for them, but I don't access them. And when I walk into the facility I don't feel particularly safe around millennial and younger trans folk. In a way,

Jackal: more about that.

Ivan: they're very mean to each other. [00:45:00] They come from a time where they have more freedom and they have more rights, and I think they feel entitled to a lot of that in a way because they didn't, they weren't around to, to witness the time before when we really needed each other. And where we couldn't, where we had to learn a bit more repair, which is not to say that we ever got it all.

Got it. Fuck,

queer community's always been full of nonsense of bullshit and lateral violence and trauma. But for a bunch of kids who would purport that their trauma informed, they sure do perpetuate a lot of trauma on each other.

Jackal: Great.

Ivan: I'll say that. And yeah. I'm very interested in intergenerational knowledge exchange and I put my money where my mouth is.

Last week I organized an event called Smart Kids Teach Smartphones to Smart Elders in the Indigenous Lounge. Partnered with First Nations initiatives and the Yukon First Nation Education Directorate. And there was people from all over the world, youth [00:46:00] teachers teaching elders,

I wanna say the age of 60 to maybe 80 something

Kai: That's so cool. 

Ivan: Yeah. Yeah. And so I'm very much into it. I would do a lot more of it. And I still do, I write books and I answer letters and I show up in the ways that I can show up and I sign books and I send books and I donate them.

And I think I do, I have done a lot or I do care about, but like in terms of mutual support

Jackal: Right

Ivan: from younger, queer and trans people,

I guess like reading my books and buying my books it's a way of supporting me and, but,

Jackal: in person. You don't feel that connection.

Ivan: I do with individuals, but I have to get to a certain place of trusting mycelium.

Jackal: When do you have your trust meter say it's time to disclose, or do you think that you're just such an open book [00:47:00] that people know?

Ivan: disclosed that I'm trans. Oh, I think everyone knows I'm trans. I think 

Jackal: you, okay, 

Ivan: I think they know who I am. I think they've probably read my books if you're talking about the younger queers. Yeah. Yeah. I don't, I like, I don't think I'm stealth ever really.

Jackal: Yeah. So you don't have any need to disclose ever in your life?

Ivan: I do disclose. Because I look how I look and because I've never taken testosterone. I would say I disclose when people, she me. That's what I'm most likely to disclose.

That I use they, them pronouns or that I identify as trans.

Yeah, that's more when I would disclose my trans status, I 

Jackal: How does, 

Ivan: of it. Yeah.

Jackal: yeah. How does that feel? How does that, does that feel natural and safe? Because you're talking about this tension with millennials 

Ivan: The millennials they get the, they them pronoun thing. Much more I would say in general. Of course, there's turf millennials too, so fuck them. But sorry, I'm 

Jackal: No, it's okay. 

Ivan: [00:48:00] turfs right now.

I feel like turfs, I feel like any, anyone who's a turf, I don't care where they stand on any other, they voted for Trump.

They empowered people who voted for Trump and voted him in. They have no credibility with me. And this pearl clutching and hand wringing over abortion. Or things that directly affect cis women and which are the only women that they care about. Yeah, I don't have a lot of time for it.

But okay. 

Kai: Question, question related to like disclosure. Like one of the things that is interesting is your, your story and your personal story and your, the multiple identities that you have. And when you're, when you encounter younger people, do you feel like they have a sense of that's important and why?

And like your history and like the history of the queer and trans movements.

Ivan: I think history of queer and trans movement is vital. And I think I have contributed to that, that canon and stuff like that. And I think a lot of queer [00:49:00] millennials and trans millennials and younger folks, they'll read my books in their women's studies class or their gender studies class, their Canadian studies class.

And I think all of that stuff is really important, just like history of all sorts is, otherwise we're bound to repeat. And here we are repeating ourselves, right?

Yeah, I think it's really vital and I think I do contribute to that. I think there's a difference, of course between reading about history and witnessing it, right?

I think we have a responsibility in a way to make sure that we do archive. Not just archive and record, but also share and bring up and teach queer and trans history and not just in an academic sense, not just in a books book sense, because not every queer and trans person's gonna go to university. What about the queer and trans people who go to trade school or don't go to post-secondary and they need to know that history too.

I think it's pretty vital to understanding yeah. 

Kai: Thank you. I, we [00:50:00] get a lot of comments from listeners the majority of our listeners are younger. And most of the comments we get are telling us that how relatable our stories are, how the stories of the folks that transitioned before around the year 2000 are so relatable to their current experience. And I always find that interesting.

So Ivan who in your world supports you now? What kind of support system do you have?

Ivan: I have a huge support system, like I said because I'm, I, there's, I, I. I know and shop next to, and work with people I grew up with and some of whom turned out to be super fantastic people. And they might not be trans or queer, but they sure have trans kids or trans grandchildren. One of my buddies growing up, her eldest daughter is a trans feminine person. Lovely artist. And we [00:51:00] have that mycelium that familial mycelium.

I'm really tight with my mom. I've got so many cousins here. I have lots of great colleagues that I work with at the university.

And then I have my friends from Vancouver. I'm a very loyal friend, like I'm a triple Leo. Hey so once I'm in your corner, that's it. Like I am forever in your corner. I also like really pride myself and value long-term friendships, like my friendships before I was Ivan, before I was a published author, I've managed to keep, and I know that's kind of a privilege unto itself to have that kind of continuity in your life.

Some people for many different reasons, whether it be moving around or trauma or disconnection from their family or being stuck in foster care or, there's lots of reason I really do consider it a privilege that like I, on the regular am in touch with friends of mine that I've known for 55 years, 

Kai: it. You know what? One of.

the [00:52:00] one and one of the things about that connection, i'm wondering because it doesn't exist for everyone. What are the allies in your world, what are your supporters doing for you that maybe others can replicate?

Ivan: Huh. When Trump was inaugurated this last time, I think it was January 20th, I walked into work at the university. This will make me wanna cry. My office is right by the Elders Lounge, the Indigenous Elders lounge, and it's in between First Nations initiatives and the Indigenous Elders lounge. And those relationships because of my own politic and my own moral compass that's aimed towards the north and living in the north affords me a chance to educate myself and live amongst true work towards reconciliation.

With indigenous people of what we call Canada [00:53:00] now. Those relationships are really important to me anyway. I was walking into work and one of the elders, she saw me walking by. She said, coyote come. There's a word in her language and I can't think of it right now, but it means sit and I know what it means and I know it in Innu and I know it in Southern Shoshone sit.

So I sat down and she said I'm just checking in. It was the Monday after the inauguration, but the next day, I think just checking in with you, she said this name thing, this document thing, the only two genders and not being allowed to change your name and your gender marker and all that stuff. They did that to us too, as indigenous people. Canada, I was called the Indian Act.

I said, yeah, I know. I've read it. She said, you'll, it's a scary time. I know that for you. [00:54:00] But if you stay attached to your people, if you stay attached to your customs, your culture, they can't take that from you, and you'll be fine.

It's just a matter of, how long and how hard you have to fight.

But I see you

And

Jackal: Make all of us cry. 

Ivan: Yeah. So by the end of that day or the next day, like most of my indigenous colleagues had taken me aside to check in with me and. Three days after it happened, one of my white colleagues asked me about it.

Yeah. Nobody else. I think lots of, and then it's, over the week or so, it's, I think people started to caught, but it was immediately right away. And my indigenous friends were not afraid to say the word genocide. That was what they [00:55:00] called, they recognized it, they saw it, they called it, they labeled it, and they knew.

They know because if you look at the steps, it's it's just textbook. It's just like they're just checking off the boxes and so it's really easy to see who our allies are or should be. And I guess the great thing for me, if there could be a great thing is that. This is already the work that I was doing.

And so I just have to keep on doing the work that I was already doing. And I know we're supposed to be scared, and I am, I know we're supposed to be depressed, but I'm not.

I know we're supposed to feel overwhelmed, but I don't, I am not cowed by any of this. I am certain,

Jackal: Yeah.

Ivan: I am just fucking 100% certain that we have to forge our relationships, and I guess for me, that's gonna involve, just, getting over my, I don't know [00:56:00] what it is. Trepidation, and really being more open to, to engaging. I'm fine with writing books and publishing book and writing letters and all that kinda stuff, but like interpersonally, the younger queer community, maybe it's just a generational thing too.

I can't relate in some ways, but I want them to get better at repair. I want them to see each other and support each other more. And that involves modeling better behavior on us. As interesting, like looking at the stealth podcast, like I don't think I've seen that many trans, trans masculine folks that I knew gathered in one place before because I, 

Jackal: we're doing our job. Yay. 

Kai: We're so lucky. 

Ivan: yeah, But somehow we. Somehow we fought enough that the youth forgot or didn't learn how to make a mistake and fall down and get back up. And I think [00:57:00] part of it has to do with social media. Think of all the stupid fucking shit that we did and said in the eighties and the nineties. I'm so glad that somebody can't go on Twitter and download my history of dumb shit I said when I was out. You know what I mean? I think it's, part of it is that, that ongoing document that you can bludgeon someone with their own mistake somehow. And yeah.

Jackal: For me it's like a generation, I can't remember the German word, but that when you laugh at other people's mistakes are falling down or like

getting injured. Yeah. Sean and Freud, thank you. 

Yeah, it's a whole generation of that and I have never been able to relate to it. And I really do think that you're correct in like how we model not laughing at other people's injuries, especially when they're part of our own community. Please, like, how do we lift each other up and brush each other's knees off rather than laughing at the scrape, right? 

Ivan: Yeah. Or taking a certain kind of glee in not being the one that's on the, that's in the hot seat, that's done the wrong thing or said [00:58:00] the wrong thing. And, there's a lot of people who are doing speaking more, a lot more eloquently about and I don't wanna call it anti cancel culture because that's too close to the right wing, the right, agenda. But coming back to these values of not, we can't get through this without all of us.

And, we're not disposable we are disposable to them. We have to not be disposable to each other. We have to learn to fuck up and make mistakes and do better and forgive each other and embrace each other.

Not make the queer and trans left this place where you have to have a fucking bachelor's or master's or PhD in group groupthink and lingo. In order to be. Accepted and loved and supported, especially supported by our community because they are coming after us

And they are trying to destroy us and we need each other more than [00:59:00] ever.

And I know they say hurt people hurt people.. And that's true. So we need to, there, we've got a lot of work to do. And, but the great news is that work is, it's about friendships and mycelium and relationships and and joy.

That's the way through it.

Jackal: Yeah.

Kai: We're, I'm really happy to be your sibling

And litter mate. And we're so 

Ivan: great to see you.

Kai: Oh, Yeah.

Yeah. And that connection you're talking about is so vital and lifesaving

and we're not going anywhere.

We wanna thank you for being a part of our lives and our show today. Ivan will have you back.

Ivan: I just wanted to close with one thing which is we have lots to learn from those younger queers too,

Jackal: Oh 

Kai: yeah. 

Ivan: we can make a space to truly listen to each other, 'cause , they're smart.

Jackal: What do you think we should have asked that we didn't?

Ivan: Oh, I don't know. I'm not a quick thinker in that way. I'm a ponder,

so [01:00:00] I'll probably come up with

Jackal: So in the next time we talk, you can answer.

Ivan: Exactly. Yeah.

Jackal: All right.

I know you, have things to do today. It was really lovely connecting with you again and I hope to stay in touch. 

Ivan: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you guys.

Kai: Thank you, Ivan.

Jackal. We just had Ivan on. What are your thoughts about our conversation with Ivan today?

Jackal: It brought up a lot of stuff for me. Um, he's so politically connected and politically active and being in Canada, remembering him from back in the day when we were both really, really politically active. And I wouldn't say that I'm not politically active anymore, but I definitely don't do the things that I used to do as far as like protesting and things like that and going out in the street.

Yeah, there's a lot of stuff. It was amazing to hear his perspective and call it what it is and the last story with. The indigenous allies calling it what it is, you know, like targeting us and [01:01:00] genocide and, um, textbook, you know, how to erase people. It was a wake up call.

I really appreciated having him on the show. So what did you think?

Kai: I think it's a really, dark time right now. And our show is about hope and connectedness, you know, and my urge is to find positive, you know, a positive, uh, spin to it, and I think, knowing that we are a part of this, that we live in this country where this is happening, in a world where this is happening. Accepting that and be as we are a part of this system that is creating this. Right. We're also like being targeted, by this machine. I think the way that Ivan described their experience of being afraid it's okay to be afraid. We're not going anywhere though. You know, I'm more determined right now to be present and to be connected to us and to share our [01:02:00] stories and to talk with you and to be who I am, unapologetically.

Jackal: Oh yeah.

Kai: You know, that that is still there. You know, it's not going anywhere, you know?

Jackal: Yeah. I guess for me, we interview a lot of Americans, and I think because we're living in it, that it's sometimes hard to talk about. And so we don't talk about it, and so I don't want to perpetuate the hiding under the covers, you know, ostrich head in the sand kind of mentality either, but I didn't find Ivan's, discussion to be like fearmongering or anything like that because like he even said, you know, I'm doing the work that I've always done.

Uh, you want me to be afraid? I'm not afraid. You want me to feel overwhelmed? I'm not, 

Kai: They said they weren't depressed and they weren't overwhelmed, but they were afraid and afraid for us, which [01:03:00] I can really appreciate because there is fear,

Jackal: Mm-hmm.

Kai: I don't know how you can be a trans or non-binary, gender non-conforming person and not have some degree of fear here. I'm sorry to interrupt, but I just think that's important. It's okay to be afraid. It makes sense, you know? Yeah.

Jackal: Yeah. I mean, you know, this isn't about Ivan, but I had, a meeting with my Spectrum group, a couple weeks ago, and, they wanted a mental health person to come and talk to them, right. You know, about resources on campus and resources that they can do in their everyday life. And after the person left, we did a wellness check and just went around the room.

And there's, I have about 15 kids. And they're not kids. They're, they're college students, right? So, but we went around the room and by the time we got to the person who's the president of the club, who's a trans masc guy, he had tuned out, right? He had tuned out because everybody has like, been talking about like, you know, how they were feeling and like the stress and dah, dah, dah.

And he said, I'm [01:04:00] checked out. And I said, why are you checked out? And he broke down crying. He broke down crying. And it was one of those moments where I was feeling like. I want Grandpa Jack wants to protect these kids. But I can't, you know, like we are all gonna feel our fears and we're all gonna feel our feelings and we're all gonna have to deal with how we cope.

You know, our show is about hope. And I think that's why we're talking about staying connected and being connected, and who in your world supports you? Because we recognize that this is a really tough time for us right now, and we need each other.

And I really appreciated that part of the message too. Like we really need each other and we need to not, you know, tear each other down and, you know, look at who's really targeting us and not target each other. So there's a lot of, there's a lot of things in there that I just really appreciated the clarity of,

Kai: And it reminds me of some other guests we've had, like [01:05:00] Rocco comes to mind about, you know, when we kind of eat our own sometimes, you know, and just showing each other some grace and ourselves some grace and, doing the best we can and Ivan is somebody that we share a really long history, and you two were clearly tearing it up in Vancouver back in the day.

And, you were squatting and protesting and doing all sorts of rabble rousing. And Ivan has been a performer and a writer and a storyteller and just such a wonderful voice for our communities for decades. And I am really proud to call them sibling and be a part of their family.

And one of the things that they said about language I thought was really important because I often find myself feeling almost like not fluent in social justice speak, you know, like how to say the words right. And how that can be so foreign to people who aren't [01:06:00] immersed.

I live in Portland, Oregon where it's like such a vital thing to be able to crush language, you know, just be exactly on point and not fuck it up, you know? And that's a very privileged place to be, like this area, you know? And I really appreciate Ivan's just talking about how that can be alienating and off-putting and not, worrying about the little shit, you know?

Like the little shit can matter. I'm not saying that, but it's like we have bigger, bigger problems right now, 

Jackal: This is just me personally, but uh, as somebody who came out of a hardcore political anarchist background, I recognize that the political correctness terminology does not always work for everybody. It's not how you make connections with the everyday average person, and it is and can be alienating which is one reason why today I push back against [01:07:00] politically correct ideology in a lot of ways.

Because if you're not allowing some of the ugliness to come out with people who might not be completely politically correct, then all you're doing is stuffing it to the point where they vote for somebody like Trump. That's my experience in this, you know, and so I would rather listen to somebody talk about like their fears and their anti-trans to me, so that I can hopefully push that thermometer of them with tolerance and caring and grace Then.

Then let it just implode, right? Whether that be a turf or whether that be, you know, whoever, you know, like military, whoever it is, you know, like I'd rather them talk to me than them vote for [01:08:00] Trump.

Kai: It sounds like you're thinking that you might be able to change their mind somehow.

Jackal: I come from a position of not changing people's minds, but moving people's hearts.

Kai: Yeah.

Jackal: And I think if you move a person's heart, they change their own mind. They can.

Kai: Mm-hmm.

Jackal: 'cause I don't think that logic changes anybody. Like I'm not arguing with somebody. I'm listening. I.

Kai: right. I'm thinking about within our own communities, sometimes people are really reluctant to speak because they're worried about saying the wrong thing or not using the most current terminology.

It just can be really alien alienating within our own communities,

And that's why I appreciate Ivan's comments about, one younger people being kinder to each other and also the intergenerational talk, the [01:09:00] cross-generational talk, which I think, you know, the technology piece that they talked about having younger folks teach older folks how to use technology.

I just wanna say you are saving so many people from having to do tech support when they go visit older relatives.

Jackal: That's true.

Kai: It's the first thing people ask. So anyway, nice job today, Jackal and, nice, conversations. And, there's some heaviness but also real warmth at connecting today.

Jackal: Yeah. We aren't going anywhere.

And now it's time for adventures and disclosure with Kai and Jackal.

Kai: So Jackal, I think you have a twist on our disclosure of the month topic talk. Talk to me about what's on your mind.

Jackal: I'm embarrassed Kai to even

Kai: oh. [01:10:00] Uh oh.

Jackal: I'm embarrassed. So I had an opportunity. Okay, so first of all, let me give you the context. It's not just like some random strangers kind of thing. I'm mostly out at work like the other. Coaches know that I am trans. And I've even shown one of them, like my pre trans pictures and things like that.

And I played d and d with, some colleagues at work, one's at the librarian and two are coaches. And so all four of us standing around. And, they were talking about something and I can't remember exactly what or how we got on the topic, but, I was talking about a story about my mom.

Who was very fataphobic. And so she was very like, you know, I'm five five and I am, you know, in my forties and I still weigh less than a hundred pounds kind of

Kai: Yeah.

Jackal: very much so. And she used to say this to me a lot, right? Because I weighed a little bit more, I weighed probably about 120 pounds, right?

But I was muscular, [01:11:00] like I was a skinny, skinny girl, but I was muscular. So my line to her would be, yeah, mom, but muscle weighs more than fat, right? So whatever, but, so I'm telling this story at work and I think it's weird that. I would say this to my mother as a guy, right? So instead of disclosing and saying, yeah, you know, when I was a girl, like, this is what I said to my mom.

I said, my sister said it, Kai, why did I do that? One person didn't know, and she's super sweet

Kai: Mm-hmm.

Jackal: I, you know, I know she wouldn't have judged me. I don't, I just think I didn't wanna deal with it in the moment.

Kai: Yeah.

Jackal: But now I feel stupid.

Kai: You get a pass, Jackal.

Jackal: I do.

Kai: Yeah, you totally get a pass. That's just how we roll, you know? I think about the times where you might say, I have a friend [01:12:00] who blah,

Mm-hmm.

know, and it's, it's a way to illustrate a point or share an experience or connect with someone, you know, like we're not obligated to let every person in and sometimes it's just kind of weird.

It's like, you wanna talk about that resonate with me, but then you have to just drop this huge disclosure on somebody, right?

Yeah. 

Jackal: And she might already even know, I don't know, because it's kinda like we talk about, right? Like I'm not living my life as Stealth, so like.

Kai: Yeah,

Jackal: I have a podcast, you know, like,

Kai: yeah,

Jackal: whatever, you know, they know I have a podcast, if they've ever looked for the podcast, you know, like, it's not like I'm hiding anything, but, you know.

So then if I'm not hiding anything, why the fuck did I say, my sister said it, not me. Like, anyways, thank you for being gracious

Kai: Yeah, I reassure you, I will reassure the hell outta ya on that one because Yeah, we just, you don't have to do it, you know, even if you're, even if you're like Mr. Out and trans guy, you know, it's okay. You know? And there's so [01:13:00] many good reasons to not do that, you know? And plus sometimes it's just too much too soon. Like it's judgment calling.

Jackal: Yeah, for me, really it was about, like, it just didn't feel like it fit for me to insert myself into the story. And so I inserted my sister instead, you know, for whatever reason. I don't know why, it was an instantaneous decision, but then I felt really stupid about it later.

So anyways, that's my adventures in not disclosing story.

Kai: Well, you know what? I think that works, Jacque. That's a great illustration about all the things we deal with. And I think, as men of trans experience who have encountered situations like this, we're gonna get it right and hopefully people, you know, maybe other people will learn from it, you know?

hopefully.

Anyway, thanks, Jackal.

Jackal: Thanks.

Music: [01:14:00] I 

Kai: Jackal and I want to remind our listeners that we have a member section. And thanks to everyone who has subscribed. Our member section offers bonus questions and personal stories by our volunteers, Adam, and our newest addition, Mikelina. A BIPOC transmasc sibling exploring adventures in transition. 

Jackal: Subscribing to our podcast helps keep us up and running. If you just want to support us by giving a donation, we sincerely appreciate it. It's only four dollars a month to become a member. So go to transmasculinepodcast. com And sign up. We don't want to be gatekeepers So if you feel that you can't afford four dollars per month, please reach out to us via email transmasculinepodcast at gmail. com considering Buying a t shirt while you're there, or if you want to be cool, like Mikelina and Adam, we especially need a volunteer to handle our social media.

Music: I 

Kai: [01:15:00] Good job today, jackal. 

Jackal: Good job to you, Kai. We want to thank our listeners and especially our guests. This show would be nothing without our guests who share their insight, expertise, and heartfelt stories. We absolutely adore you and are forever grateful to you. Stealth captures the living history of men of trans experience.

Kai: We recognize that language has its limitations. The words we use to describe ourselves and our community evolve over time and will not represent everyone's experience. We also want you to know that the health and wellbeing of our community is our number one priority. 

Jackal: We want to give a shout out to parents who are supporting their gender non-conforming kids. We support you and love you for supporting your kids. We want to put our podcast in the spotlight. Thanks for not trolling us, but really is this just another form of trans mask and visibility? We offer links to health and safety resources on our website. We monitor our social media [01:16:00] platforms. We respond to feedback from our audience, and we will be accountable when we screw up.

We want you to know that we are just two guys doing this in our spare time and two old farts to boot. The opinions expressed are our own and those of our guests. We do not represent any entity outside of this podcast. Remember, if you're interested in sharing your story, we would love to hear from you.

Kai: Also, if you're interested in volunteering, please let us know. Your feedback and support are essential to our show's success. Help us get the word out about our podcast. Tell your friends, share on social media, and rate us on your favorite streaming platform. Be sure to check out our website, transmasculine podcast.com.

Jackal: Thank you for joining us Until next time.

Kai: [01:17:00] So

Jackal: wanna start? When

Kai: Yeah, jackal. We just had Ivan on. Uh, what, what are your thoughts about, about our conversation with Ivan today?

Jackal: It brought up a lot of stuff for me. Um, he's so politically connected and politically active and being in Canada, remembering him from back in the day when we were both really, really politically active. I. And I wouldn't say that I'm not politically active anymore, but I definitely don't do the things that I used to do as far as like protesting and things like that and going out in the street.

Um, yeah, there's a lot of stuff. Um, it was amazing to hear his perspective and call it what it is and have, you know, and like the last story with. The indigenous allies calling it what it is, you know, like targeting us and genocide and, [01:18:00] um, textbook, you know, how to erase people kind of thing. Um, it's, it was a wake up call.

It was a wake up call and I really appreciated having him on the show. Um, so what did you think?

Kai: I think it's, it's a really, um. Dark time right now. And our show is about hope and connectedness, you know, and my, my urge is to find positive, you know, a positive, uh, spin to it, you know, and I, and I think, you know, and knowing that we are a part of this, that we live in this country where this is happening, in a world where this is happening.

Accepting that and be as we are a part of this system that is creating this. Right. Um, and we're also like being targeted, um, by this machine. You know, it's, it's [01:19:00] really, um, I, I think you know, the way that Ivan, they described their experience of being afraid it's okay to be afraid. We're not going anywhere though. You know, like I'm more determined right now to be present and to to be connected to us and to share our stories and to talk with you and to, you know, to just to, to be who I am, um, unapologetically.

Jackal: Oh yeah.

Kai: um, you know, that that is still there. You know, it's not going anywhere, you know?

Jackal: Yeah. I mean, I think so. I didn't, I mean. I guess for me, we interview a lot of Americans, and I think because we're living in it, that it's sometimes [01:20:00] hard to talk about. Um, and so we don't talk about it, and so I don't want to perpetuate the, the hiding under the covers, you know, ostrich in the hand, ostrich head. Ostrich head in the sand kind of mentality either, but I didn't find Ivan's, um, discussion to be like fearmongering or anything like that because like he even said, you know, I'm still doing, I'm doing the work that I've always done.

Uh, you want me to be afraid? I'm not afraid. You want me to feel overwhelmed? I'm not,

Kai: They said he was, they said he, they were afraid and that they weren't depressed and they weren't overwhelmed and they weren't, you know, but they were afraid and afraid for us, which I can really appreciate because there is fear,

Jackal: Mm-hmm.

Kai: you know, like, like, I don't know how you can be a trans or non-binary, gender non-conforming person and not have some degree of fear here in.

Um, but, [01:21:00] and, and I'm sorry to interrupt, but I just think that's important. It's okay to be afraid. It makes sense, you know? Yeah.

Jackal: Yeah. I mean, you know, this isn't about Ivan, but I had, um, a meeting with my Spectrum group, uh, a couple weeks ago, and, um, they wanted a mental health person to come and talk to them, right. You know, about resources on campus and like, just resources that they can do in their everyday life. And after the person left, we did a wellness check and just went around the room.

And by the time we, like, there's, I have about 15 kids. And they're not kids. They're, they're college students, right? So, um. But we went around the room and by the time we got to the person who's the president of the cub, who's a trans mask guy, um, he had, he had tuned out, right? He had, he had tuned out because everybody has like, been talking about like, you know, how they were feeling and like the stress and dah, dah, dah.

And he said, I'm checked out. And I said, [01:22:00] why are you checked out? And he broke down crying. He broke down crying. And it was one of those moments where I was feeling like. I can't. I want Grandpa Jack wants to protect these kids. But I can't, you know, like we are all gonna feel our fears and we're all gonna feel our feelings and we're all gonna have to deal with how we cope.

You know? And I think that that's, you know, our show is about hope. And I think that that is, you know, that's why we're talking about, I. Staying connected and being connected, and who in your world supports you? Because we recognize that this is a really tough time for us right now, and we need each other.

And I really appreciated that part of the message too. Like we really need each other and we need to not, you know, tear each other down and, you know, look at who's really targeting us and not target each other. So there's a lot of, there's a lot of things in there that I just really appreciated the. [01:23:00] Of,

Kai: And it reminds me of some other guests we've had, like Rocco comes to mind about, you know, and, um, when we kind of eat our own and sometimes, you know, and it's like just being, showing each other some grace and ourselves some grace and, um, you know. Doing, doing the best we can. I and I, I think, you know, like Ivan is somebody that we share a really long history, and you two were clearly tearing it up in Vancouver back in the day.

And, you know, you were squatting and you were, uh, protesting and you were doing all sorts of rabble rousing. And, um, you know, and Ivan has been a performer and a writer and a storyteller and just such a wonderful voice for our communities for decades. And I. Am really proud to call him sibling and to be a part of their family, call them sibling and be a part of their family.

And, um, you know, and I [01:24:00] really appreciate the, one of the things that they said about language I thought was really important because I often find myself being. Um, feeling almost like not fluent in like the social justice speak, you know, like how to say the words right. And how to, how to not, you know, what's the current thing and, you know, and, and that can be so foreign to people who aren't immersed.

I live in Portland, Oregon where it's like such a, a vital thing to be able to just, to crush language, you know, just be exactly on point and not fuck it up, you know? And it's, it's, it's like. That's a very privileged place to be, like this area, you know? And, and I, and I really appreciate Ivan's just talking about how that can be alienating and off-putting and just not, it's like worrying about the little shit, you know?

Like the little shit can matter. I'm not [01:25:00] saying that, but it's like we have bigger, bigger problems right now,

Jackal: but I mean, I, this is just me personally, but uh, as somebody who came out of a hardcore political anarchist background, I recognize that the political correctness terminology. Does not always work for everybody. It's not how you make connections with the everyday average person, and it is and can be alienating and, and, uh, and which is one why, one reason why today I push back against politically correct ideology in a lot of ways.

Because if you're not allowing. If you're not allowing some of the ugliness to come out with people who might not be completely politically correct, then all you're doing is stuffing it [01:26:00] to the point where they vote for somebody like Trump. That's my. Experience in this, you know, and so I will, I would rather listen to somebody talk about like their fears and their anti-trans to me, so that I can hopefully push that thermometer of them with tolerance and caring and grace Then.

Then let it just implode, right? Whether that be a turf or whether that be, you know, whoever, you know, like military, whoever it is, you know, like I'd rather them talk to me than them vote for Trump.

Kai: It sounds like you're thinking that you might be able to change their mind somehow.

Jackal: I come from a position of not changing people's minds, but moving people's hearts.[01:27:00] 

Kai: Yeah.

Jackal: And I think if you move a person's heart, they change their own mind. They can.

Kai: Mm-hmm.

Jackal: 'cause I don't think, I don't think that logic changes anybody. Like I'm not arguing with somebody. I'm listening. I.

Kai: right. Uh, and I think, um, one of the things. And I, I'm thinking about is, you know, within our own communities, uh, sometimes people who are, are really reluctant to speak because they're worried about saying the wrong thing or not using the most current terminology. You know, they may not, it just can be really alien alienating within our own communities, you know, to, to, to, to, you know, and I, I think that's, that's why I appreciate.

Ivan's comments about, you know, one younger people like being kinder to each other and, um, and also the intergenerational talk, the [01:28:00] cross-generational talk, which I think, you know, the technology piece that, that they talked about with like teaching, um, having younger folks teach older folks how to use technology.

I just wanna say you are saving so many people from having to do tech, tech support when they go visit older relatives.

Jackal: That's true.

Kai: It's the first thing people ask. So anyway, nice job today, jeal, and, um, nice, nice conversations. And, uh, again, um, you know, it's, there's some heaviness but also just, uh, real, real and reflection, you know, and real warmth at, at connecting today.

Jackal: Yeah. We weren't go, we aren't going anywhere. I.