DeMarco

As an intersex male, DeMarco T. Lord has dedicated his life to championing the rights and well-being of marginalized communities. He is the passionate Founder and Executive Director of Advocates of the South Inc., where his leadership and unwavering commitment to activism shine. DeMarco is an activist first and an advocate second, prioritizing impactful change over recognition. Formerly a chapter leader for Black Lives Matter in San Francisco, he has tirelessly worked on the front lines of social justice. Additionally, he has been a coordinator for Transforming Organization in Atlanta—one of the oldest Transmasculine groups around—demonstrating his dedication to intersectional advocacy.

With six years of experience in the behavioral health field, DeMarco combines his professional expertise with his activist heart. His love for education and continuous learning allows him to effectively speak and organize, inspiring others along the way. Notably, DeMarco is the first intersex male to be held in Atlanta's jail in the regular male population, a testament to his resilience and courage in the face of adversity. DeMarco's journey is marked by resilience, compassion, and a relentless pursuit of equality. He is committed to not only educating others but also enriching his own understanding to better serve his community.

DeMarco

Jackal: [00:00:00] Hello everyone. Welcome to our new season of Stealth a Transmasculine podcast. I'm Jackal. And I'm

Kai: Kai. We're your hosts for the Trans Masculine Podcast. The new season means new questions, and this season focuses on staying connected during these difficult times.

Jackal: Our show focuses on the stories of people who identify as trans, masculine, and who transitioned either socially or medically before or around the year 2005.

The name of our show highlights two important facts that one, for our generation, we were often told to hide our past and live in underground existence. And due to that, our stories are often overlooked.

Kai: We want our audience to know that we ourselves are part of this generation of trans masculine identified people, and that we value the [00:01:00] experiences inside our trans masculine community.

We want people to know that throughout our lives, each of us has had to navigate issues of disclosure, which have impacted us In many ways,

Jackal: the bond we share as persons of trans experience is precious and lifesaving. These are trying times throughout the world. There are groups removing protections in place for our trans and non-binary communities, safety is a real concern for us, particularly our trans and non-binary bipoc siblings.

Kai: We offer links to health and safety resources on our website, trans masculine podcast.com. We also have an incredible mentor mentee buddy program that has connected 88 trans men. If you're interested in becoming a mentor, please reach out to our awesome volunteer Clark via the mentoring tab on our website.

Please hold each other dear and stay in touch with us. If you're new to our show, welcome and if you're a follower from a previous season, thank you for your continued support. [00:02:00]

Jackal: As humans, we are always changing and transitioning. As elder trans men, we assume many roles. We get married and divorced. We are caretakers, we are parents, we are professionals, academics, and advocates.

We push for human rights and systemic change.

Kai: We invite our listeners to remember that we are a living community. We are healthy, we are contributing. We have experience, loss, and success. We are loved, and we welcome you to our stories.

Jackal: We did. So here we are again with banter. We just wanna say that we're so happy that you're here with us at the start of what we consider now to be season six. I really wanted to clarify to our listeners what seasons in quotes means to me and Kai, because we mentioned to one of our guests that we were in season five and he said, wow, congratulations on running for five years.

Such an accomplishment. We haven't quite actually been [00:03:00] running for five years. It's more like almost four years, depending on how you wanna count it. Just so you know, Kai and I began talking about creating a podcast back in May of 2021, and when we talked about our vision, we talked about who we wanted to reach out to.

We argued about what to call it, and I'm happy to say that I won that battle. And Kai, I wanted to ask you, how do you feel about the name of our podcast, stealth Now, four years later? I don't remember that being a battle. Was it a battle? Oh yeah. You didn't want it. You were like, oh, it might give the wrong impression.

It's too controversial in our community.

Kai: Yeah. Okay. All right. It's coming back to me. Actually. I really like it. I think because it's controversial and evocative, I think that is the fuel that fires our show. I remember initially hearing back from folks we approached to be guests, a couple of 'em said, I almost deleted your email [00:04:00] because mm-hmm.

The title of the show, it's so offputting, and I think that's really important. I think one of the things that we were really tied to in the beginning, at least as I thought was so important, was that we have a theme and that we adhere to it. That helps guide our work because podcasts can go everywhere and conversations can go everywhere.

It's not to say that we don't ask other questions, but I think that the issue is ongoing. Mm-hmm. Whether you're pre or you're contemplating, or you're in the middle of it, or you're post transition, we contend with this all the time, so I really do like the name and I do like STP. Oh yeah. That's funny.

That was, and yes, we do know. We knew that. It's an insight. I don't think I

Jackal: knew that until the t-shirt got made. And then it was like, did you notice this? And I was like, oh my God, that's so great. Yeah.

Kai: Yeah. So anyway.

Jackal: Yeah, I really

Kai: like the name. How about you?

Jackal: Of course. I think it's, again, like you said, evocative and provocative and it's an ongoing theme in our community as [00:05:00] well.

And it's a generational gap thing as well. I think that it gives us a lot of things to discuss for a lot of different reasons. Tell the audience about how we got started. When did we drop our first episode, Craig? Yeah,

Kai: I know you and I were on the, a shared message words of trans mass books and somebody had asked if somebody wanted to be on a podcast.

And I remember that you messaged me and said we should do a podcast or something. And I said, that's funny you say that because I have something in mind. 'cause I was living stealth at the time. Mm-hmm. And so I'm so glad that you. Did that, that you asked. It wasn't something I thought would actually come to fruition.

Sometimes it's, yeah.

Jackal: Yeah. Right.

Kai: And who the hell knows we're coming up on four years. Four years. Yeah. So tell us about the decision to come out on Halloween. To release Halloween. Well,

Jackal: yeah. So we decided to drop every, like every Sunday. The first season was every Sunday. Yeah. And that got to be grueling.

So we changed that up a bit, but we decided to [00:06:00] do it on Sundays. I don't think we had a particular reason why for Sundays, but that was our decision. And that Sunday happened to be August, October 31st. That was the first time that we were gonna drop. And I really wanted to drop it on that day because it was the day before Trans Awareness Month.

Mm-hmm. I was really like gung ho. If we're gonna drop on a Sunday, we have to drop it on October 31st. And I remember you being like. I don't want it to get confused with Halloween, costy da duh, kind of thing like this. And I was like, I have to have it before Trans Awareness month Kai. Mm-hmm. I have to.

Mm-hmm. I can get dramatic.

Kai: Yeah. And I think sometimes we have to remind ourselves that it's volunteer work and we try to be really consistent and we try to show up and get things done. So I'm glad that we picked, it's easy to remember. It is. It's really true. So season six, how do we, you mentioned, right, somebody had asked about years.

Yeah. And like how do we figure out which season, right?

Jackal: Yes. That's a [00:07:00] great question. So we do have four years. This October 31st will be four years. Congratulations, by the way. Yep. You And this episode that we're dropping today is season six, episode one. Our seasons aren't bracketed by how many people we interview or how often we drop episodes or anything because that's changed over time.

We bracket our episodes by. Us getting tired of our interview questions and just changing them.

Kai: It does start to feel a little stale and we don't wanna have that seep in. Yeah,

Jackal: yeah,

Kai: yeah. For sure It does

Jackal: for us. It does. But you had something important to say. 'cause I say we just changed them just 'cause and because we get tired of the questions.

But you had something a little bit more profound to say about it.

Kai: I thank you. I

Jackal: think

Kai: we, we listen to comments from our guests. We read them, we read the emails. We read [00:08:00] the comments on social media from our listeners. Yeah. Yeah. From our listeners. Pardon? Me. And guests. Yeah. And friends. So we take that to heart and some of the issues that have come up in the world and in our communities, we've certainly brought that into it with the.

Connection to disclosure. Disclosure. That is our anchor. And so we ask ourselves, how is this related to our foundation? And I think that's really important and it's helped us build on it.

Jackal: Yeah, it's really true. I just wanted to say that in this season we're gonna have a special episode for number 75. Our 75th episode is gonna appear in season six, and that's really exciting to me because that means we've had approximately 76 unique stories by trans men who have lived up to 50 years of experience living their lives authentically.

We've had some younger people, we've had more trans men of color. [00:09:00] Kai's done a really good job of reaching out. He's the one who gets all of our guests, so we're really proud to be here. I'm really proud of you, Kai. I am really proud of our listeners. I'm so happy that we continue to do that. It inspires me to know how important our stories are.

Kai: Yeah, especially now. And I thank you, Jacqueline. I love oral tradition. Oral history. You love

Jackal: oral?

Kai: I, yeah. I just love oral. I think you're so horrible. You're so bad, so wrong.

Jackal: This isn't an explicit show. I'm trying into that.

Kai: Yeah. It is explicit. Anybody under 18, we're wagging our fingers at you. I work with middle schools.

I know what kind of potty males they have. Yeah, I think you totally, I totally lost where we were going. Oral history.

Jackal: You love oral history.

Kai: Yeah, I love oral history and our stories are not out there as much. And that is, again, important one, we are here, we have always been here. We are not going anywhere.

And we are loved. And we are lovable, and our stories are rich and intriguing.

Jackal: [00:10:00] Yeah, and we just wanna remind you that in season six, as Kai said, we do still focus on disclosure, but what we are focusing on, I. This season in particular is staying connected to each other, staying connected to family, to friends and community.

And so whether you're stealth or just isolated, we see you. We remember you. We love you, just where you're at, and we want you to stay connected to us and hopefully be inspired by our guests and how they stay connected to

Kai: Amen. Thanks, Jack.

Jackal: Thank you.

Meik: Hi there. I'm Mike and I'm the creator of Transness Stories. When I was at the start of my transition, I searched for uplifting stories of people who had questioned their gender identity, gone through their transition, and come out stronger. I needed direction and delight at the [00:11:00] end of the tunnel. Trans stories is my way of paying it forward.

It's the resource I wish I had. Had a space full of real positive and anonymous transition stories from transmasculine individuals offering clarity and hope for anyone navigating their journey. If you are on the transmasculine spectrum, I'd love for you to share your story. And if you know someone who could use some direction, send them over to trans mask stories.com to explore dozens of transition stories.

Alright, that's all. Enjoy the show now. Cheers.

Adam: Today's episode is with DeMarco T Lord, an intersex male DeMarco has dedicated his life to championing the rights and wellbeing of marginalized communities. He's the passionate founder and executive director of Advocates of the South Incorporated, where his leadership and unwavering commitment to activism shine.

DeMarco is [00:12:00] an activist first and an advocate second, prioritizing impactful change over recognition. Formerly a chapter leader for Black Lives Matter in San Francisco, he has tirelessly worked on the front lines of social justice. Additionally, he has been a coordinator for transforming organization in Atlanta, one of the oldest transmasculine groups around demonstrating his dedication to intersectional advocacy.

With six years of experience in the behavioral health field, DeMarco combines his professional expertise with his activist heart. His love for education and continuous learning allows him to effectively speak and organize inspiring others along the way. Notably, DeMarco is the first intersex male to be held in Atlanta's jail in the regular male population.

A testament to his resilience and courage in the face of adversity. DiMarco's journey is marked by resilience, compassion, and a relentless pursuit of equality. He's committed to not only educating others, but also enriching his own understanding to better serve his community. [00:13:00] Demarcos anniversary is the year 2000.

The same as Marty, Kyle, Curtis, Zion, Rocco, Thomas, Alexander, and Cyrus. So go check out our website to see what momentous events happened that year.

Jackal: So welcome back to Stealth. We're here with DeMarco. How you doing today, DeMarco?

DeMarco: Pretty good. I can't complain.

Jackal: Good, good. We're glad to hear it. So we typically ask people how they came to be on our show. So how did you get to be on our show? What's the story there?

DeMarco: Just, I think the focal lens was to speak about the difference, and so I am a intersex black male.

Kai (2): Mm-hmm.

DeMarco: Of trans experience. I think it came to where a lot of guys, we wanted to begin to amplify our voices and let folks know that we are here in community [00:14:00] actually doing the work. And as guys we are stepping onto other platforms.

Jackal: Awesome, awesome. Wow, that's a new one for our show. I appreciate you being here and sharing your story. Thank you so much.

Kai: And I was really pleased to hear from you saying that you wanted to be on our show and I appreciate that. So whoever tipped you off that we're around, thank you to the, to those people or that person.

It's such a pleasure to have you today. So how did you learn about trans masculine identities?

DeMarco: So I would say maybe around when I was about like 16 or 17, I had a fake id, so I went to a club. And I let a friend talk me into it. I went to a club and it was my first time seeing the guy that I felt that matched the energy that I had, and he was actually trans-masculine.

Kai: Tell us a little bit more about that. [00:15:00]

DeMarco: They did what was called, and it's still called, the same thing, I believe was doing shows. He had this suave type of thing going on while he did his show. And I remember he, he actually introduced himself after the show and he told that he was a male of trans experience.

Kai (2): Mm-hmm.

DeMarco: And so for me it wasn't, it wasn't his muscles, it wasn't any of that because within just hearing him, I remember that vibe of what I could relate to. Mm-hmm. So, yeah.

Kai: Mm-hmm. Okay. All right. And are you still in touch with him?

DeMarco: I

Kai: am. That's amazing. So I know a little bit about your backstory, so talk to us about your own transition and what that means to you, DeMarco.

DeMarco: So I think transition, for me, it's a lot different. So I think that [00:16:00] when I think about it, it still has so many similarities to the trans experience of it. I've maneuvered in life to where, for me, it could have been one or the other. I related more to my male identity side. And so throughout my full transition, 16, 16 years of age, for me, I stopped Estrada.

That allowed me to just be like, I hate using this terminology, but like a open person. Just as an individual to figure out what I really lean to. And by the age of, I would say between my twenties to 20, 21, 22, I had made those final decisions and I had been in therapy since I was seven. So that really helped me determine how [00:17:00] I wanted to maneuver that.

Kai: Would it be okay if I asked you a little bit more about your history

DeMarco: being intersex, coming from those chords of life? Sometimes your parents sway you one way versus the other. When I was coming up, it was more about safety with your child. So I think my father was very open with me about me living more.

However, it was that I wanted, my mother was more one way versus the other. In order for safety concerns, what the, what society really thought back then. And so for me, I just followed instructions, what I was told to do. And like I said, by age seven I was already on extra do and going to therapy. And so from there, by the age of 16, I started to [00:18:00] navigate for my own self what I didn't wanna do, what I did want to do.

Mm-hmm. And how I perceived life and how I wanted to live. Mm-hmm. All of the identities that I seemed to be close to were male. Mm-hmm. Who I wanted to hang out with. The behaviors as a child were very, to me, mixed. Mm-hmm. But you could tell it linked towards more of a male identity.

Kai: Thank you. So thinking about.

Your parents and they wanted you to be safe and wanted the best for you. Of course. Do you remember when they told you that you were intersex and how that conversation went and how they talked to you about it?

DeMarco: Uh, so I never had a conversation back then. I do remember my father just saying bits and pieces of things, but it wasn't until like I really was of age and he never used the [00:19:00] words like, 'cause even today is probably still harmful to hear it, but her mouth.

But I intersects, this word intersects did not come out until maybe I was 30 when people started saying, um, intersex. But it was actually her math. But I. And so my dad would never say that word, so he just would say, you were born differently. He would tell me the things that probably was not possible for my life, um, but he would try to be very positive, highlight the things that I could do with my life.

Jackal: Thank you so much. Yeah. There's so much here to think about and talk about. I wanna understand a little bit more about the actual transition. So you mentioned that for your mom, it was about safety. And so I, what I assume [00:20:00] when I hear that is about being a black woman compared to a black man or a black girl compared to a black boy, right?

Because. We live in the United States, there's targets on black people's backs in general, and black men in particular. Right? So having the quote unquote choice of which way gender can go, your mom preferred you to grow up with estrogen, extra estrogen. So that aspect of your identity was highlighted, and then you as a person, you felt more connected to the male side of your identity.

So you're a little kid. How do you think you navigated that identity? Like you were growing up, you said at 16 you stopped taking estrogen, but did that mean develop developmentally? You started developing breasts and things like that, and then you like came off of it, and how do you think all of those kind of social standings impacted [00:21:00] your decision?

I.

DeMarco: So I want to say that my navigation started earlier on, seven years old. I was in therapy. I didn't know why I was there. I was to play with other kids. And so my parents watched, my dad watched me and I didn't know he was there, but I was playing with another intersex child.

Jackal: Mm-hmm.

DeMarco: That intersex child happened that she related to was a female and, and even playing with her.

The identity that my dad even assumed at that time that I was, that's how I responded. But she fell. I made sure I dusted off her knee if we were playing blocks and I was shorter than her, but I would climb on something to get the block up there for her. So my father already suspected my identity. I think it shines [00:22:00] through, and even for a parent, it shines through even as a child.

It doesn't start when you are further down the line, but you can see it through life.

Jackal: Great. So you were in a very precarious situation through many years of your life. Our podcast is called Stealth. What does stealth mean to you?

DeMarco: So I want to say that stealth means that you are able, and you live a life.

You may live two lives, or you may live life without people knowing anything. Mm-hmm. And that's what stealth is to me.

Jackal: If we can go back for a little bit, you stopped taking estrogen at the age of 16. You were in school, you were [00:23:00] in high school at this time. Did your gender change? Did you change school so that you could live as a boy or did you continue through high school as a girl?

DeMarco: So at that time, at that time, I was actually graduating. I graduated early. Okay. And so 16 I was graduating. So for me, that meant that. I was going to college and I could live at that time as I pleased according to me.

Jackal: Okay, great. So were you ever told to live a stealth lifestyle yourself?

DeMarco: I had encouragement to.

Okay,

Jackal: tell me that.

DeMarco: So I had encouragement of course, from my dad especially, and on my mother's side. If I was going to live this difference, then I needed to live it still safely. [00:24:00] Okay.

Jackal: All right. Thank you.

Kai: Yeah. I'm really curious about how you did that. Did you have to tell family members? Did family know your parents?

Sounded like they were really supportive and wanted you to be who you are in all of the things that you are. I don't know if it was a rough road. Some of us have a rough road. Can you talk to us just a little bit about your 16. How did you come to this decision and what was it like?

DeMarco: So at 16, I remember I had not made the full thought that I was going to maneuver all the way.

In my mind, it was almost as if I was gonna live this free identity and live that way if I felt comfortable that way. So

I think that in eyesight, I'm not always sure what people saw at that time. [00:25:00] A lot of times the majority of the time people would say, oh, I'm not sure. I don't think you should call that person, he or she. So in the layer of that, I'm not sure that for me didn't come until years down the line. When I was 16, I had not made that full, that grand, uh, switch over to me.

I was still living too, according to my therapist. When you go to therapy as a intersex person, they want you to go through so much more in order to know that you're embracing truly what it is and how it is you feel.

Jackal: But, okay, so let me pause you there. For 10 years, like from six or seven to 16, you say that the therapist wants to embrace you to embrace how you feel in quotes, and yet they were encouraging you to feel [00:26:00] like a girl and you didn't.

I guess my question is, is, well, well, there,

DeMarco: there are things that go with that. They even have books on it, but their thing on that is to make sure that you don't feel, because you look one way. You're not doing it because of that, but you're doing it actually because you how you feel inside. Mm-hmm. So even though to me, I'm glad that they changed it date, but back then it was, let's lived as this whole other side for two years and less be able to make sure before you make final decisions.

Jackal: I see. Yeah. I guess I'm just curious from your perspective about as a child, like going from what gender means to a child and having an adult kind of say you're living this particular way when you actually have feelings that, [00:27:00] of living the other gender and being in opposition to that in a way.

DeMarco: Correct.

To me, it's more of an open thing to me when it comes to being intersex. You, even today, people may say, oh, he's the most masculine guy. Um, but a part of me will always, mentally, always live that the true birth of me and the true birth of me is intersex. I, it just so happens that I'm a intersex male.

Masculine male at that.

Kai: Thank you. Thank you. Your story is so unique as. Other folks who are intersex, their stories are unique. I mentioned to you when we first talked that I had a friend who was intersex, whose family didn't share this with him, and he was assigned female and that wasn't an alignment with his experience.

And he had surgeries growing up that he was confused about and didn't know about [00:28:00] until he was an adolescent. But his parents never told him ever. He transitioned and he identified as trans man, but he also became aware that, okay, I am intersex. This is all lining up now.

DeMarco: And that's how I learned of it. My parents never broke it down to me or never really came full forward with me.

I learned it medically. So I remember maybe like when I was in my twenties, maybe like 23, I had a. Problem. And when I had that problem, I asked to see my medical record. Mm-hmm. And so when I saw intersex on there, I was like, Hey, so why are people calling me? What is, what does this mean?

Kai (2): Yeah. And then

DeMarco: my chromosome chart, I seen the XXXY.

I was like, Hey, so what does this mean?

Kai: Yeah. Thank you so much. What was it like? You see your medical chart and you're like,

DeMarco: for me it was just like trying to reach, what is all this [00:29:00] information I. And what are my next steps? What do I need to do to figure out why all these things are here? What is it? What is it that you know and what is it that made me so different like this?

Jackal: Mm-hmm.

DeMarco: I worried if mentally at that time when I seen that chart, if I would actually live a, what I felt to be a normal life.

Kai: What were some of the concerns you had? Because I know so many of us feel alienated and on the fringes and like we don't quite understand why we can't be, I don't know, be comfortable in alignment with something that like I didn't feel comfortable as a girl that wasn't ever a good fit for me being described as that.

DeMarco: I think at the time when I seen that medical chart and record, it supported the things that I felt it supported from back then, back when, why I acted the way I did. Not being told and things of [00:30:00] that nature affected me to where I did feel like the, that child that was just like that, and I don't like the word black sheep, so I'm gonna say blue sheep, but I felt like that.

Yeah, I felt like that blue sheet because I didn't feel like I fit.

Jackal: Yeah. Mm-hmm. It's interesting because Kai said like most of us who are afab signed female at birth don't have the intersex experience. It's like crazy for us. Oh. Like we're actually, I hate using the word born in the wrong body, but we don't get the affirmation that we are boys.

But it seems like the intersex identity validated your. Experience as, oh, this is why I have been feeling this way my entire life. So that's a very interesting distinction between what I'll call Afab transgender trans experience and the [00:31:00] intersex trans mask experience. Very interesting.

Kai: Thank you. All right, so our show is about disclosure.

Have there been periods in your life where you lived a low to nodi disclosing lifestyle?

DeMarco: Yes, most definitely. And I did it for different purposes, and I also did it because in a time where the world was so controversial, I think for me, I think some people ask even like, how did those changes occur? A lot of changes occurred and as the world shifted, it didn't layer much from that discrimination, maybe not being able to get certain jobs or do certain things or, so for me, living stealth meant I to have to keep continuing to explain to people mm-hmm.

[00:32:00] Life. And then it also put me in what my mother considered to be safe environments. Mm-hmm. It also pinpointed towards that normal life that I wouldn't have so much of a fight. So for many years I've lived a very, um, Steph life.

Kai: Thank you so much, Jacqueline. I see many parallels between when people were told to live Steph and now political climate.

Talk us through what it was like for you when you transitioned compared to disclosing now.

DeMarco: So with the current political climate heightened the way that it is, I think we're all definitely very aware of that. It's almost like a hatred treatment, say discrimination in the air. For me, back then I didn't have [00:33:00] that, what I felt to be a backend, but, but today I'm definitely because of the heightened climate, my choice is different today than it was back then.

Today I choose to be very open, very transparent, and because of the political climate, I'm not gonna let somebody put me inside of a box and be okay with it. But my choices today are different than back then, and I choose to stand out in this heightened climate. Because I do feel that we are all resilient and unless we do it today, tomorrow may be fearful for those who walk behind us.

Yeah,

Kai: thank you. And politically, right now, the conversation, the anti-trans legislation and policies and hatred is so geared towards trans, the transfeminine experience, like trans masculine experiences [00:34:00] erased. They're trying to eradicate anyone that's outside the binary. It's all transfeminine, but then intersex folks are not even on the radar

DeMarco: that, yeah, I think that is so much misconstrued.

I don't think people are paying attention. A lot of people who are intersex wanted that X on their passport, and they did have it. A lot of intersex folks choose to stay intersex. And so a lot of intersex folks that I know, they feel like that is a part of their true identity. And so by taking that away from folks who you know, that will always be a part of our medical life to take that away and put us back into these fragmented situations, we are there on that frontline.

And medical wise, most definitely, we are not on a spectrum, per se,

Jackal: on a binary, but

DeMarco: [00:35:00] yes.

Jackal: Yeah, you are the spectrum, really. Yeah.

Kai: Yes. Yeah. I know that this is a really big part of why you wanted to come on this show. If a conversation leans to trans topics or trans conversations, what do you do now? What do you want people to know?

DeMarco: So I would say one of the biggest reasons why I'm actually beginning to do interviews and things of that nature is so that and that I can be a part of the conversation. A lot of times we're left out or we have to be pushed into a certain box. While I love all trans people, not everybody identifies as trans.

Even our community, when we're asked to come to the table, I'm told that I have to check trans and that is not my life, nor is that how [00:36:00] identify, and so it's become a unsafe thing for intersex people. I think that. Sometimes we just choose to do what people want us to do versus necessarily what's good for us.

Mm-hmm. Ask those same questions to my trans brothers. If they were told they had to check another box, how would they feel about that and what would be verified on that line? Right. Say, community is big to say how each category should be able to be respected and loved and we're great and resilient, but I, I've had more doors closed in community towards intersex than I have on other sides.

Jackal: Wow. Yeah.

DeMarco: And yeah, so that's been a [00:37:00] hard thing and definitely trying to navigate it. One thing that, that I said in 2025, I'm no longer gonna check boxes that say trans, I just won't be at that table. Wow.

Jackal: Excuse me. That's really good information for us to have and to know, because I'm guilty of it too.

Like I make surveys for the kids at my school and we'll put in like you can check every box that applies to you and trans is there and other box. But I never put specifically intersects like that's an included category. And I think that it's important. I think what you're saying is very important for us to educate ourselves as we enter our sixth season.

It's clear to us that it's important to stay connected. And you're touching on this a bit yourself regarding the disclosure and connections piece. So as men of trans [00:38:00] experience, I feel like we share a special bond that feeds most of us, nourishes us. So I guess my question here splits off, so one, how connected are you to other men of trans experience, and specifically how connected are you to other intersexed men of trans experience?

DeMarco: I think that I'm very connected to males of trans experience. I think that we navigate together some things.

Jackal: Mm-hmm.

DeMarco: I definitely feel that I. The ones that I'm close to, we're able to bring that, what I feel to be organized and get different things to the table. I think for the ones that [00:39:00] I'm around, they respect to who I am now.

I can't speak for some of the others, but I can speak towards the greater group that I'm around. So I think that I have a lot of, uh, trans male brothers in my corner. And then I also have a percentage of other intersex males who, you know, I have some greater conversations with too, because we're able to talk about different things.

It may be a surgery, it may be dating. It may be, how did you disclose or whatever. I'm able to have those conversations with both groups. I don't feel so divided when it comes to that, not with who I have in my corner. Now, if you say, if we're talking about broader community, [00:40:00] I would say I haven't had that many great spaces when it comes to community and the respect of being intersex.

I've even been on some platforms, and this is even recently, where they continue to label me as trans. Even during the whole conversation, like I said, 20 25, 1 of my things is I want to be able to breathe in community. I want folks who were born the same way as me to know that I'm not just holding a platform, I'm not just an executive director, founder of a organization, and that I'm not fighting for us to be at that table too.

Jackal: Speak to us about that. You are the executive director of an organization, and this is specifically [00:41:00] directed towards the rights and understanding of intersex peoples. Correct.

DeMarco: It's not towards exactly the rights and inter, uh, intersex people, but advocates of the South Incorporated. I wanted to shoot for the real marginalized portion of community.

When I started Advocates of the South Incorporated, I looked at what I call brothers. And I broke down that intersexuality. A couple of things that I was looking at is I had heard from so many at that time, and mind you, I deal with recently incarcerated and folks who are incarcerated. So they haven't had much time to navigate who they are.

Jackal: So you're talking about they haven't had much time to intercept the they. And you're talking about that the THEY is in regards to intersex people who are incarcerated or

DeMarco: so they're [00:42:00] trans. We deal with trans, intersex and gender nonconforming.

Jackal: Thank you.

DeMarco: So in community today, I'm not sure how many folks are aware of it, but maybe because I work in a nonprofit world so heavy as I do, a lot of guys have separated some of that.

In order, they say is to live their authentic truth. Mm-hmm. Which that should be respected. Mm-hmm. So you have what's considered to be just trans mask. You have what is gender nonconforming. And I have guys who are gender nonconforming. They choose to be they and he. Right. And so I also though I love them from that group as well, because that is still what we consider that [00:43:00] population who is underrepresented.

Yeah. When it comes to being able to be invited to that, to the tables.

Jackal: Right.

DeMarco: And so that's what advocates of the South does for those groups who. Underrepresented. They're not invited to tables. That's what advocates of the South's focal point is. When folks are not inviting you to that table, how do we get you your resources?

How do we get you the trainings and how do we get you to these tables?

Jackal: Awesome. And is that geographically bound? Are you only being advocates for the South? Like where does it go? That nationally. Literally. Literally. Yes. Yeah.

DeMarco: Yes. So we don't just work in the South.

Jackal: Mm-hmm.

DeMarco: We actually, so the co-founder of Advocates of the South is actually in North Carolina, so we built some times with our [00:44:00] different folks so that we're not just doing it for folks here.

We don't say, okay, for our virtual support group online. So if you're in Detroit, you can't come on here. Right. We hope that open so that people can see and people can know. If you are of this background, then guess what? We want you at the table. We wanna make sure that your voice is heard. The way you feel is Valley.

Jackal: Okay,

DeMarco: great.

Jackal: Awesome. Is there a website that people can go to that you can plug really quick?

DeMarco: Yeah, so it's www advocates of the south.com.

Jackal: Okay. www.advocatesofthesouth.com. Thank you. Okay, so how connected are you to people that you knew pre-transition, like in high school before you were 16? And if you have one, can you tell us a [00:45:00] story of reconnecting with someone post-transition that you knew in your previous existence?

DeMarco: So I have plenty of people who, um, went to middle school with me who are still in my life today. And so for a experience of me bringing someone back around, I have done that. I'm gonna say that I had gotten disconnected with them due to you changed phone numbers and things of that nature. And my Facebook name was not the name that they knew.

I, so of course there was no way for them to say, okay, this is this person.

Jackal: Mm-hmm.

DeMarco: So I reached back out and I explained, Hey, so we went to school together.

Jackal: Wow.

DeMarco: Back when. And I sent them a message through Messenger,

Jackal: Uhhuh,

DeMarco: and I said, I would really like for us to be able to be [00:46:00] friends today. Mm-hmm. And so I think in the beginning they were boss.

And I think they thought someone was playing a game, right? Yeah. Yeah. So there's so

Jackal: much scamming out there. I don't know. You and now you're trying to, are you trying to get Don't ask me for money.

DeMarco: I think that they thought I was like this guy trying to like get with them.

Jackal: Oh, okay.

DeMarco: And I'm making up some type of story to get their phone number.

Yeah. So it was like, okay. So then I waited for them to come around. So when they saw that on Facebook, I was connected to other people that we went to school with, they automatically was like, no, this has to be somebody I went to school with. Wow. And so they reached out and they said, Hey, so I really thought this was a fake thing going on, but you're actually connected to a lot of people that I also went to middle school with.

Mm. And so they said, would you like to at least [00:47:00] have one conversation? I was like, yeah, that would be great. I didn't know how I was going to like, disclose or any of that bullshit.

Jackal: How did you disclose?

DeMarco: So when we got on the phone, I was like, Hey, you knew me back when. And so I'm intersex and then I down to them from when we were younger.

The things that they also pointed out that was different about me, I had a really deep voice. Mm. And often I got picked off for having a deep voice. So this was one particular female woman that even back then she had said I was really rug. And so that's what she would call me. I didn't actually know what it was back then.

Right. And she remembered those things and she said, wow. She said, it really does make sense.

Kai (2): Yeah.

DeMarco: So we've [00:48:00] had constant conversations and I'm thankful for, for all of those folks to me today. They have opened up those doors to be educated and get the educational tools to even talk about it with others.

So I'm very grateful for that.

Kai: Everyone, thank you so much for sharing that. As a person who was picked on and was different and things like that. So when I first transitioned, I met a group of men of trans parents who were very much of the binary and they were part of a study that did MRI work and they looked at the brains of these guys and they were trying to determine if there was a biological as or connection to.

Trans men, the researchers speculated there may be a biological reason, rationale for their experience. And then so they were trying to find like an F to M brain at the [00:49:00] time. And in some ways, some of the guys who were thinking that there was a biological reason for this, they felt more affirmed and more validated in their experience.

And I was like, what happens if you are a person who's trans who doesn't have that? Is that invalidate? Are we gonna have this discussion? And who's more real, quote unquote. And I'm just wondering, as someone who's intersex, like when things line up, it's, oh, it makes so much sense now in, in some ways that sounds really affirming.

DeMarco: I don't think that I've really thought about it that way necessarily. For me, like I said, mentally, I felt, it goes back to that statement of it was something that I felt that my mind during those ages. Was navigating my life as a child. You don't know how to embrace that. You just do what you do as a child, even a young adult.

You [00:50:00] just navigate. I have had a couple of folks do studies on me and I've ran away from studies right now. It doesn't mean that I won't go back to those, but I also got tired of feeling like a Guinea pig.

Jackal: Yeah, totally. Completely.

DeMarco: Yeah. I've done major things for a couple of hospitals out here, and as they studied like my medical chart, they did so many tests on my chromosomes that it doesn't so much validate who I am because if, if a person feels the way that they feel, I don't think so much that it takes.

For a person to, to genuinely validate that. For me, it made sense medical wise, especially if you haven't been told. So then you just have to figure out what's best [00:51:00] for you, how do you navigate it for you safely. Mm-hmm. How do you wanna relate to all of these things that now a doctor is calling you or they're saying, I read my medical chart and when I saw a couple of things that was like ongoing conditions, I was like, Hey, so you're not gonna call my sexuality a ongoing condition?

So you begin to see a lot as a intersex person. And I'm not gonna say that our medical does this big thing of, I want to use the right terminology. It doesn't do this grand thing of, of lot of giving me this big thing as a person. Mm-hmm. But it does speak. For my medical history.

Jackal: So it doesn't validate you on one hand, but

DeMarco: it Correct.

Gives some

Jackal: sort of,

DeMarco: because if you said it was validation, then the thing was is that maybe I might have [00:52:00] to, in this current administration, if you said it validated who I am, maybe they will ask me to live as what I was born.

Jackal: Right?

DeMarco: So they may say, Hey, so from now on your ID on this, it's gonna have to say intersex.

Jackal: Mm-hmm. I have a question, 'cause Kai brought this up in our experience, especially in the nineties and things like that, and maybe a little bit today in some kind of old school generations there, I won't call it infighting, but there were. Hierarchies of you're only trans enough if you're on testosterone.

You are only trans enough if you've had top surgery and you're really the good trans mask guy if you've had bottom surgery as well. Is there that intersex hierarchy in your experience

DeMarco: in certain degrees? [00:53:00] I do feel like that is what separates trans and intersex males.

Kai (2): When I'm with

DeMarco: other intersex males, there's not so much of that with us. And the reason for that is, is because we're still like that real population that's not. Speaking up, or we're not at tables, so we're not so much as trying to size each other up.

Jackal: Mm-hmm.

DeMarco: But we're more of like, Hey, did you go to your doctor's appointment today? How are you feeling after that?

Jackal: Yeah.

DeMarco: How was your date yesterday? Oh, we're more, yeah, we're more like that, but we don't really, per se, I guess care if, if you had whatever surgery or whatever or whatever. With that, we're [00:54:00] more about the safeness of each other.

That's awesome.

Jackal: That's nice to hear. You mentioned it, so I'm gonna mention it too. Not that I'm a gossip or anything, but how do you make new connections, especially like with dating and when and how do you disclose?

DeMarco: Ooh. So I guess I'll try to be as transparent as I can. Oh.

S it can be, I've dated some in community. Yeah. Which was very helpful because I didn't have so much disclose.

Jackal: Mm-hmm.

DeMarco: But I do end up having to do educational. So I feel like that part can sometimes suck. And sometimes I actually don't want to, I try to let a woman get to know me. I have had a thing, I'm gonna be real honest.

'cause in that part, I still have very strong growth to stealth. [00:55:00] So when I date outside, when I date women outside of community, I do not tell them.

Jackal: Hmm.

DeMarco: And like I said, I found this thing that I want to be more open and I want to be, I want to be the authentic. She had that authentic thing about me that I'm able to tell that woman and then if she's gonna judge me, she was gonna judge me anyway.

Jackal: Right. She would've judged you about something else.

DeMarco: Yes.

Jackal: Right.

DeMarco: And I have done a thing now to where once I get, feel close enough to her, I have a couple of questions that I do ask women. 'cause I want to see what they're gonna say. And depending on how they answer that question, is if I'm gonna keep moving forward with them or if I'm gonna back away.

Kai: What questions do you ask?

DeMarco: So one [00:56:00] is, how do you feel about L-G-B-T-Q-I?

How do you feel about rights of L-G-B-T-Q-I? How do you feel about anyone who was born differently? Would you be a ally for. Folks who didn't have that, those greater, uh, seats at the table. And those are three of my first questions, if they do exceedingly well on those questions. I'm moving forward to my next little panel.

Kai: We've had a few folks just ask us about dating and talking about disclosure and dating, and particularly folks who date women. And I think it is such a personal decision and in some ways it sounds like you're really trying to determine if the person is a safe person to, to share really private information with.

Right. And it also sounds like you're [00:57:00] torn because you have this fire in your belly right now where you are very much about being your authentic self and living out and proud. Yes. Yes. And it's been really hard and I can just feel that tension there. And I

DeMarco: don't want anybody pushing me back from doing what I felt like is my purpose.

Jackal: Mm-hmm.

DeMarco: So for me, that plays a major part in the dating field. And if it's so much pressure there, then I'll take some time from dating.

Kai: Yeah. Thank you so much. You are touching on so many things. DeMarco like one, the history of transgender and intersex medicine. James Green is one of the editors of the book that just came out, that history of transgender medicine.

And there's not much talk about intersex folks in that book. And that book is very large. There's not much talk about trans masculine folks in that book for lots of different reasons. There's a lot of voices left out and there's been a lot of harm. Done to our communities and specifically intersex folks, I'll put the [00:58:00] Intersex Society of North America on our website.

Their mission is to really talk about that, to highlight that and advocate for patients of family who feel they've been harmed by the healthcare system. Are you connected to the Intersex Society of North America? Is that some an, an organization that you're connected to at all? Uh,

DeMarco: no, I am not. So I am, I'm not gonna say the group's names, but I am connected to some colleges here in Atlanta who do support groups.

They were also the ones who did the studies, um, here in Atlanta. Mm-hmm. So I'm connected to them and those, like a group, a great group of folks, and that is where I found most of the, the other intersex males that. The other intersection males that I do congregate with. Mm-hmm. And like I said, during tough [00:59:00] times, I have those times and days and I'm able to go back and have greater conversations with them, whether it is moving forward, what I want to do, what I don't want to do.

So it is good to always have those groups. It's good to find other groups as well, because the more you have on that platform and support not just only for yourself, you could be supporting someone else that you don't even know you're supporting. Sometimes some of us hold stuff in because we've been so ostracized that you may not even a person may not even know they're supporting me one day.

Vice versa. So it's good to always have these groups around that are able to let us have platforms. Mm-hmm. Where we can associate with each other, have those greater conversations, be the support for one another, because that's what community is supposed to [01:00:00] stand for.

Kai: Yeah. Agreed. And you are clearly somebody who is well supported and cared for and who provides that for other folks.

DeMarco, I really appreciate that you're connected to folks from your childhood. Sounds like your relationship with your family is really of importance to you and you also are connected with your organization and then the folks that, and that real sense of bond with folks who are intersex and men of trans men masculine experience.

I feel such a connection to our communities. It keeps me going. People who understand that, and I'm glad you have that. And how if, when you think about the allies, like right now, there's so much going on and our lives are at stake, how, what tips do you have for allies who you know and folks who love us?

DeMarco,

DeMarco: I seen one of these great sayings on Facebook, so it said, if you are not getting kicked with one of those rocks that's been thrown at [01:01:00] me, either one, you're not an ally or two, you're not standing close enough to, and the weight of that, the one thing about it, and I'm probably a major voice of this.

Is that trans folks of intersex experience and gender nonconforming folks. There's targets right now on each back.

So when every other fight comes to the table, and I said this when I work for Black Lives Matter, and I lived very stealth at that time.

Jackal: Mm-hmm.

DeMarco: So when those fights came, the first folks that I saw on the front line of those fights before anybody got arrested was trans people. Yeah. Was [01:02:00] intersex folks, was folks that could have sat back from the table.

Mm-hmm. Necessarily, but every fight. I see trans folks on the front line.

Kai (2): Yeah.

DeMarco: No matter what fight it is, I see intersex folks on that front line, and I see gender non-conforming people fighting and standing up. So I hope that if a person really is and wants to be a ally, then they're standing on that front line the way I seen every trans person, the way I seen every intersex person, the way I seen every gender non-conforming standing for them.

Yeah, that's a good point.

Kai: Thank you. As we wrap up this part of our interview, what do you think we should have asked that we didn't quite ask you just yet? DeMarco?

DeMarco: I don't think there's any questions. It's a authentic running thing.

Jackal: [01:03:00] Mm-hmm. You

DeMarco: guys gave me a layout, so I just mm-hmm. Was going by the layout.

Jackal: Yeah.

DeMarco: I think you asked certain questions that Lear tools. Everything that's already been on there.

Jackal: Like our trans mask experience being central, because this is our first go with an intersex identified trans mask person. So this is new territory for me and Kai for sure.

Kai: Yeah, and I also think we're trying to tie it to our theme, which is disclosure.

Correct. So there's so much. I guess I'm just gonna ask you if we can have you back on the show and keep the conversation going over time.

DeMarco: Yeah, I think that's awesome to continue the conversation going and I wouldn't be in the brain at least one or two more other intersex guys as well. Awesome. And have them also contact you all.

Jackal: Thank you. That would be an honor. Appreciate, thank

DeMarco: you.

Jackal: We're very aware of safety and name dropping, but we wanna sincerely thank all of those who have supported us [01:04:00] throughout our lives, and especially those who have supported our guests. So thank you very much. Thank you, mark DeMarco, for being here.

Thank you. Thank you.

Wow. Yeah. That was something. Thank you. Thank you, Kai, for finding this person or accepting this person because this was new for me. This was new for us. This is the first time we've had somebody who identifies as intersex male of trans experience, so, mm-hmm. Trans goes with our trans mask theme, but an intersex person we have not interviewed before.

Kai: Exactly. At least that we know of. Right. So, yeah, I'm really glad that de Marco got in touch with us and I've had some really nice conversations along the way, just establishing connection with him and understanding what would be most comfortable for him. He's great. I'm so excited that we're gonna continue to talk with him and Oh yeah.

Stay connected about the [01:05:00] work that he's doing. What stood out with you about the interview? So the parallels

Jackal: and the differences. He didn't get into it too much, but being on estrogen as a young person, right. Living a socialization life as a girl, as a young woman, before being able to choose to not do that anymore.

I'm curious about that as well. Mm-hmm. As I found that that was really interesting and. The advocacy piece, I think is what really stood out for me. Like he's really passionate about getting these stories out there, sitting at the table, like it made me rethink who we've maybe left out of our trans mask stories here and how we become more sensitive, you and I in our podcasting to this issue.

Mm-hmm. What about you?

Kai: Yes. Yeah. I think one of the [01:06:00] beautiful things that he has taught me is just that he has this openness about him embracing who he is and all of the fullness and all the intersectionalities that make him who he is, and embracing his history, embracing his experience, and then encouraging other folks who are intersex to embrace their experience.

Knowing that many folks have gone through a lot of trauma. And hardship as a result. And then politically, just how difficult it is currently for trans people. You know how trans mass people are being erased. Like they're doing so many things that are trans-feminine specific, which are horrible, but we're not part of the conversation.

And certainly intersex folks are not even being discussed in that same realm. And in some ways there may be people that are grateful for that, but I think it's just not validating in so many ways.

Kai (2): And

Kai: I really would love to learn so much more from him about [01:07:00] what prompted this year to be that he is fully committed.

A hundred percent. Like we're gonna help elevate voices of inter sex folks and let people in.

Jackal: Let people in.

Kai: Yeah.

Jackal: Yeah. Also, just the, one of the things that stood out that I really appreciate is the complexity of identity. We mentioned to him that our show is focused on trans mask people, and he had mentioned that he could get other intersex people on our show potentially, which is really exciting.

But he mentioned off air that some of those people might identify as transmasculine or male of trans experience, and others do not claim the trans label at all. Right. Like they find it offensive that they're lumped in. They want their experience to be held uniquely. And just appreciating the complexity of identity and how people choose to label themselves if they do.

That's complex and interesting and [01:08:00] unique to me.

Kai: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think it's certainly flexible. The advocates of the South are there for folks who are trans, who are gender nonconforming, who are intersex, all those things. And I. There's no gatekeeping it sounds like. Mm-hmm. Which is really wonderful. The theme of this season is connection to community and that bond that we share, and I'm so glad that he's connected to folks and that he has sought that out and retained relationships and reconnected with people from his past.

That's so critical. Staying connected, not being isolated

Jackal: and pushing boundaries, pushing us past our boundaries and connecting with us. I'm really happy that he's our first interview for season

Kai: six.

Jackal: This is amazing.

Kai: Me too. Me too. It's gonna be a great season and yeah, here we are. Let's keep it going. Yeah, definitely.

Nice day. The nice work today, Jacqueline.

Jackal: Nice job for you. Kay.[01:09:00]

And now it's time for adventures and disclosure with Kai and Jackal. So today's disclosure question goes out to Kai. Kai. What's your disclosure story for today?

Kai: Okay. I work in a middle school. Right? I do. Okay. So I'm working with sixth to eighth graders. So ages 11 through 14 and a half. Big range. Yes.

Right. So I have one trans feminine person whose name I will not mention. Okay. Who is figuring things out and really wants to be quote unquote normal. Wow. Okay. So doesn't wanna be trans or identify as trans. She's identifies as a girl. That's cool. All about that. And in my office I have unicorn lights and a trans flag and a pride flag.

And my rainbow lights and everything is very Affirm. Yeah. Firm of every name. It's so, she happens to know that [01:10:00] I happen to be married. To a woman, right? And so she was sitting there and this is like probably the sixth time that we've met and she's sitting at my table and she said, what's with the flags?

And I was like, what do you mean? And she said, that's a trans flag. And I said, and she said, and that's like the pride flag. And I said, yes. And then she said, you're married to a woman. And I was like, I can still be gay and queer. And she was like, oh, okay. And then she goes, what about the trans flag? And she pointed the trans flag.

And I was like, what do you mean? What about the trans flag? And she said that it's trans, it's feminine and transfeminine. I said, yes. And I said, I'm old. So back in the day, it used to be male to female or female to male. And she said, okay. And I said, so you're trans-feminine? She said, yes. And I said, I'm the other way.

And she did the math. She put it together and she said, you're like me. Cute. It was so sweet. Cute. It was really sweet. It was really [01:11:00] sweet. And then I just said, yes, I am. So that was, that's my little story of just coming out, disclosing to her. It's not like I'm hiding it. The first time I met her, I used the word we sometimes we wanna be normal and just fit in and she doesn't wanna have trans friends and she doesn't wanna stand out.

She just wants to be like one of the girls. So it's really nice, cute relationship. So yeah, that's my story. Thank you so much for sharing. Yeah.

Jacqueline and I wanna remind our listeners that we have a member section and thanks to everyone who has subscribed, our member section offers bonus questions and personal stories by our volunteers, Adam and our newest edition, Michael El. A Bipoc Trans masked sibling Exploring Adventures in Transition.

Subscribing

Jackal: to our podcast helps keep us up and running. Or if you just wanna support us by giving a donation, we sincerely appreciate it. It's only $4 a month to [01:12:00] become a member, so go to transmasculine podcast.com and sign up now. We don't wanna be gatekeepers, so if you feel that you can't afford $4 per month, please reach out to us via email, transmasculine podcast@gmail.com considering buying a T-shirt while you're there.

Or if you wanna be cool, like Michalina and Adam, we especially need a volunteer to handle our social media.

Good job today, jackal. Good job to you, Kai. We want to thank our listeners and especially our guests. This show would be nothing without our guests who share their insight, expertise, and heartfelt stories. We absolutely adore you and are forever grateful to you.

Kai: Stealth captures the living history of men of trans experience.

We recognize that language has its limitations. The words we use to describe ourselves and our community evolve over time and will not [01:13:00] represent everyone's experience. We also want you to know that the health and wellbeing of our community is our number one priority.

Jackal: We want to give a shout out to parents who are supporting their gender non-conforming kids.

We support you and love you for supporting your kids. We want to put our podcast in the spotlight. Thanks for not trolling us, but really is this just another form of trans mask and visibility.

Kai: We offer links to health and safety resources on our website. We monitor our social media platforms. We respond to feedback from our audience, and we will be accountable when we screw up.

Jackal: We want you to know that we are just two guys doing this in our spare time and two old farts to boot. The opinions expressed are our own and those of our guests. We do not represent any entity outside of this podcast.

Kai: Remember, if you're interested in sharing your story, we would love to hear from you.

Also, if you're interested in volunteering, please let us know. Your feedback and support are essential [01:14:00] to our show success. Help us get the word out about our podcast. Tell your friends, share on social media, and rate us on your favorite streaming platform. Be sure to check out our website, transmasculine podcast.com.

Jackal: Thank you for joining us Until next time.