Aidan, part 1
Aidan Key is a sought-after speaker, author, and educator whose gender-related work spans over 25 years. Aidan, the founder of Gender Diversity, works nationally with hundreds of K-12 schools and youth-based agencies providing professional development, strategic planning, policy development, athletics guidance, and education for parents and students. Key is also the founder of TransFamilies, a national organization providing support and resources for families of gender-diverse children. He is a sought-after educator and speaker for professionals in the legal, judicial, corporate, medical, and mental health fields.
Key is the author of the groundbreaking book, Trans Children in Today’s Schools, (Oxford University Press), a contributing author to both editions of Trans Bodies, Trans Selves and Affirmative Counseling and Psychological Practice with Transgender and Gender Nonconforming Clients (American Psychological Association). In partnership with the WA State Interscholastic Activities Association, Aidan authored the nation’s first Gender Diverse Youth Sport Inclusivity Toolkit and co-authored the first gender inclusion policy in the U.S. for K-12 students.
Aidan has been awarded over 20 formal accolades for leadership including Seattle Magazine’s Most Influential People of the Year; Huffington Post’s Top 30 LGBTQ Change Makers; Greater Seattle Business Assoc. Humanitarian of the Year Award; Trans 100 Inaugural Member Award; Community Service Lifetime Achievement Award, WA Dept. of Health & Human Services; and a GLAAD Media Award Nominee. He is considered a subject matter expert regarding transgender and nonbinary children and has been featured on national and international television, radio, internet, and print media including The Oprah Winfrey Show, Larry King Live, DiversityIS, and twice on NPR’s Fresh Air.
You can find Aidan’s work here:
TransFamilies - support for parents/caregivers of trans and nonbinary children
Gender Diversity - education and training for schools, workplaces, and organizations
Aidan S6 E10 PART 1
[00:00:00]
Intro with Music
Jackal: Hello everyone. Welcome to our new season of Stealth a Transmasculine podcast. I'm Jackal.
Kai: I'm Kai. We're your hosts for the Trans Masculine Podcast. The new season means new questions, and this season focuses on staying connected during these difficult times.
Jackal: Our show focuses on the stories of people who identify as transmasculine and who transitioned either socially or medically before or around the year 2005.
The name of our show highlights two important facts that one, for our generation. We were often told to hide our past and live in underground existence. And due to that, our stories are often overlooked.
Kai: We want our audience to know that we ourselves are part of this generation of trans masculine identified people, and that we value the [00:01:00] experiences inside our trans masculine community.
We want people to know that throughout our lives, each of us has had to navigate issues of disclosure, which have impacted us In many ways,
Jackal: the bond we share as persons of trans experience is precious and lifesaving. These are trying times. Throughout the world, there are groups removing protections in place for our trans and non-binary communities, safety is a real concern for us, particularly our trans and non-binary bipoc siblings.
Kai: We offer links to health and safety resources on our website, trans masculine podcast.com. We also have an incredible mentor mentee buddy program that has connected 88 trans men. If you're interested in becoming a mentor, please reach out to our awesome volunteer Clark. Via the mentoring tab on our website.
Please hold each other dear and stay in touch with us. If you're new to our show, welcome and if you're a follower from a previous season, thank you for your continued support. [00:02:00]
Jackal: As humans, we are always changing and transitioning. As elder trans men, we assume many roles. We get married and divorced. We are caretakers, we are parents.
We are professionals, academics, and advocates. We push for human rights and systemic change.
Kai: We invite our listeners to remember that we are a living community. We are healthy, we are contributing, we have experienced loss and success. We are loved, and we welcome you to our stories.
Banter
Jackal: Hey, Kai. We always do banter, lots of dog stories. I hear this right about now. So you wanna start with your new dog story or you want me to start?
Kai: How about you?
Jackal: So I, I was saying to you off air I have two dogs.
One of them is this really big guy called Chapapote. Chapapote is a, a indigenous word in Mexico for the Nawa people that means tar or pitch. it's like pitch black. So that's how he got his name. And he's big. He's [00:03:00] like, he's like a Labrador, but he's. Body shape like a doberman, like super tall, super skinny, but super strong.
Right? And I have another dog named Buckaroo and Buckaroo I got in Mexico and his original name was Balu, like, like uh, from the Jungle Book.
Kai: Yeah, the bear.
Jackal: Yeah, exactly. And I wasn't really into that or whatever, but I wanted something that kind of like had the B and the ooh, you know, so that he had an easy time remembering it.
And so I went with Buckaroo because of course I'm from the eighties and Buckaroo, bonsai was like this, like super niche. What are they called films, you know, that, that, you know, fan-based films and I actually watched it afterwards and it's so cheesy. I knew it was cheesy in the eighties I watched it the first time, but rewatching it now is just like super hilarious.
Like if you get a chance, anybody out there who's listening, if you get a chance to watch the movie, Buckaroo Bonsai. [00:04:00] Please try to go. I, it might be on Netflix or something. I don't want to promo Netflix or anything, but like, it's so funny. Buckaroo Bonsai. Anyway,
Kai: 1984 jackal.
The the
adventures of they all, like I'm looking at all of the actors now. They're still alive.
Jackal: Yeah. Most of 'em are alive. Jeff Goldberg's in it. Yeah, Jeff Goldman's. Like if, if you're a Jeff Gold boom fan, like he, you know, like go see it. It's super funny. It's real, it's really cheesy.
Kai: John Lithgow and
Christopher
Jackal: LA Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was it, it had a really all star cast. Like it was really, really good, but it was so cheesy.
Like the movie itself is so cheesy, you would not believe in the special effects. Oh my God. They're just, they're just to die
Kai: The the Guardian describes, I still don't know what it's about.
Buckaroo
Buckaroo Bonsai, the surreal eighties flop that became a cult classic.
Jackal: Cult Classic. That's what I wanted to call it. Yes. Cult classic. It is a cult [00:05:00] classic. It sure is. It was so funny. But anyways, that's how he got his, his name. And then it's funny because Josh Joshua just came to visit me and, and he from Mexico, right? And so he doesn't know buckaroo, like he's never
Kai: could you, so
culty
Jackal: no, no, no, no, no. But I mean, Buckaroo has a meaning here in besides Buckaroo. Bonsai, right. And and you know, and I was like, yeah, it's just kind of a, a term for like, dude, you know, buckaroo, like, it's mostly for, like, for me it was at least for little kids. And and so we looked it up and it's actually, and.
An Americanized English bastardization of ba
Baca.
Kai: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a bacca is the, yeah. The, the cowboy. You Baquero, Baquero.
excuse me
Kai: of the Spanish word vaquero derived VA Cow.
Jackal: Yeah, exactly. So, so, so he has like a lot of like significance there [00:06:00] and, so the story goes after all the naming story. The story goes that I walk them one at a time 'cause Buck, because buckaroos a squirrel hound and he's just super hyper and Chapapote is really big.
And so walk walking them together, like Chapapote is really sweet, like if I walk him by himself, but if I walk him together, forget it. He's just like all over with Buckaroos energy and dah, dah, dah. And they'll pull me off my feet. And so I walk him one at a time. And so I was out walking buckaroo and I came back to the sliding glass door that's outside, you know, you know, that protects my house.
And Chapapote got really excited and he jumps up on the, on the sliding glass window and his paws come down and he locks the door.
Kai: my God.
Jackal: So I'm like, holy shit,
Kai: He's security dog,
Jackal: Oh my God, it was so funny. And he's never done it before. Right. And so I was like, oh my God, what do I do? But luckily, just this one random time I happened to have my keys on me when I was walking.
I'm [00:07:00] in my pajamas. I'm
Kai: Oh Yeah.
Yeah
Jackal: And so, and so, yeah. So anyways, I I didn't get locked out of the house, but I could have gotten locked out of the house because Chapapote Puti actually is tall enough to lock this back door on me. So anyways, what about you? You got a new puppy sort of a new puppy?
Kai: That's hilarious. I just, I wanna say just how I can relate to. Almost like the dog walk of shame. , When you crawl outta bed and your hair is everywhere and I barely have socks on, they don't match. And you know, you just have to walk the dogs get 'em out and, you know, anyway, I totally relate, relate that.
And especially in bad weather being locked out, you
Jackal: Oh my God. Yeah,
Kai: is the worst. Yeah, so , I'm off work right now for a little bit more. I. It was a good time for us to get a second dog. So we lost honey a year ago
Jackal: Wow That
long ago.
Kai: A year. Yeah. Yeah. And so we. My partner loves pugs [00:08:00] and so we've been looking at pugs and since I have a month off, I was like, it's a great time for us to acclimate a pug.
So we got a rescue pug down in San Francisco she always wanted a dog, a pug whose name is poutine. Poutine is the stew kind of thing.
It's french fries and gravy. It's like very fatty, you know, pugs, right.
Jackal: Right right
Kai: So I shorten it to Poot because it's very, actually hard to call poutine, you know, come here poutine. He doesn't know his name yet, but we've had him for five days
Jackal: sounds nasty. Poot,
Poot
What's your dog's
Kai: used
it used to be my nickname for for my first dog. Yeah. don't know why. You know, kind of, I don't know if he'd up with nicknames for your dogs. So, yeah, Poot is actually a really special name. He doesn't, he doesn't know it, but he's a great dog and lucky the Golden Doodle is taken to him really well.
Jackal: Yeah.
Kai: And, it's been quite a ride getting, two of 'em is definitely more than one,
Jackal: Yeah.
Kai: you know, but I will say walking the dogs lucky, like Buckaroo loves squirrels or cats, so she will kind of [00:09:00] go a little bit. Cuckoo and pull . So I bring treats and I'm still not good at it, know, but the little one is fine, he'll follow Lucky everywhere.
So we went to the dog park, he followed her everywhere off leash and was super easy. It's like he's been here forever. He's super chill and stinky.
Jackal: and
stinky. How old is he?
Kai: About two they say and his a pretty good clean bill health. I think his back legs, he's probably has some mobility issues or will in the future, you know, but he's getting around great. And he's really sweet. And so it's cool to have a new dog.
Jackal: Yeah. Well, let's get on with the show. I.
Kai: Let's get on with the show,
Jackal
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Shawn Aaron: Hey, this is Sean Aaron. He, him, his. And I'm here to tell you about them. Boys podcast. I'm the host of them boys podcast, and as a black queer trans man, the podcast amplifies the voices of other trans men of color as we share our transition stories. The podcast not only [00:10:00] amplifies the voices of trans men of color, but it raises awareness and conversations around our lived experiences.
You can listen to the podcast by going to them boys.org/podcast. That's D-E-M-B-O-I s.org/podcast. I hope to have you join us on the next
Guest Bio
Shawn Aaron: episode.
Kai: Today's guest is Aiden. Aiden is a sought after speaker, author, and educator whose gender related work spans over 25 years. Aiden, the founder of Gender Diversity works nationally with hundreds of K through 12 schools and youth-based agencies providing professional development, strategic planning, policy development, athletic guidelines.
Education for parents and students. Aiden is also the founder of Trans Families, a national organization providing support and resources for families of gender diverse children. He is a sought after educator and speaker for professionals [00:11:00] in the legal, judicial, corporate, medical, and mental health fields.
Aiden is the author of the groundbreaking book, Trans Children in Today's Schools by Oxford University Press. A contributing author to both additions of trans bodies, trans selves, and affirmative counseling and psychological practice with transgender and gender nonconforming clients. In partnership with the Washington State Interscholastic Activities Association, Aidan authored the Nation's first Gender Diverse Youth Sport inclusivity toolkit and co-authored the first gender inclusion policy in the US for K through 12 students.
Aiden has been awarded over 20 formal accolades for leadership, including Seattle Magazine's most influential people of the year. Huffington Post Top 30 L-G-B-T-Q, change Makers Greater Seattle Business Association Humanitarian of the Year Award, trans 100 Inaugural Me Award, community [00:12:00] Service, lifetime Achievement Award.
Washington Department of Health and Human Services and a GLAAD Media Award nominee. He is considered a subject matter expert regarding transgender and non-binary children, and has been featured on National International Television, radio, internet, and print media, including the Oprah Winfrey Show, Larry King Live Diversity Is and twice on NPRs Fresh Air.
Check out our website, trans masculine podcast.com to see links to his books.
Jackal: So welcome back to Stealth, a Transmasculine podcast. We are here with Aiden and Aiden. We've known each other for a long time, but we always ask our guests, how do we know you? How did you get to be on the show?
Aidan: Well, there's, there's two of you. So two different stories. Jackal, I met you probably first through our, our shared connections in Seattle [00:13:00] particularly with the dike community there. So who knows how long ago that was? Mid nineties,
Jackal: At least. Mm-hmm.
Aidan: Gosh. Well, Kai, maybe even the same timeframe.
My was just barely one or two years or three years old, somewhere in there.
Kai: Yeah
I used to come into the Starbucks where I worked
Aidan: that's right, because you were right. Just
a couple blocks away and Yeah. So yeah, definitely. Going back in time for you know, all three of
Jackal: Mm-hmm.
Kai: Pre transition.
Aidan: Yeah. Yes.
Jackal: pre way,
Aidan: All of us. Right?
Kai: Yeah.
Jackal: Yeah.
Kai: Yeah.
Aidan: What would we have said to each other if we'd known what was ahead?
Would we have said, should we do this or, or should we not?
Kai: It's gonna be a wild ride.
Jackal: Yeah,
Aidan: Well, we would've said,
Jackal: yeah, Well, probably I would've said, no way in hell am I ever gonna do that
Kai: I don't know, Jack,
Jackal: There was a lot of conversation happening at that time.[00:14:00]
Aidan: it sure was.
Kai: So Aiden, like, how in the heck did you even find out about trans masculine at identities?
Aidan: well within my dyke community you would hear something here or there. I remember hearing about, oh yeah, that person who transitioned. And it essentially maybe was one or two people on the trans masculine spectrum. Trans women who my community inappropriately referred to as drag queens.
I would see them, so I would hear of a trans man here and there without meeting them. And people were very liberal with saying whatever they wanted to say. And identifying those people in whatever way. And then the trans women were women who were interested in being part of that part of my community.
And you know, what I remember so clearly is how isolated they were much as they were [00:15:00] kind of, again, a small number of people, but they were visible, but on the outskirts,
I images of the trans woman sitting at the lesbian bar reading a book by herself
Kai: Mm-hmm.
Aidan: no one talking to her.
Jackal: Mm-hmm.
Kai: remember a specific writer and performer who was there for quite some time. So talk to us a little bit about how you began your own transition. You found out that we, there was a thing that people could
Aidan: Yeah, well, you know, some, I'm making my way as a, as a young adult. And, and then into my later twenties and all of that hey, I'm sitting at the TV one day and Geraldo Rivera pops on and guess who's on there? Trans man. And I remember just leaning in, looking at the TV and going, oh my gosh.
That's a thing that's possible. It seems silly to have an awareness of trans women and, and that [00:16:00] process, but not be able to connect it to people transitioning towards a male identity. And I, and I remember flashing back to being nine years old and having a pretty clear epiphany of, I should have been born a boy.
Why wasn't I? And then this little sad 9-year-old despair, knowing that nothing could be done about it, that it was impossible, and then doing whatever I needed to do along the way in the subsequent years to manage the nightmare of puberty. And, trying to fit in in a world that fit in, in a identity that didn't resonate at all.
So, there I am, my little 9-year-old is looking at the man on TV that I said was impossible or thought was impossible. And there, there he is, possibility. And
Kai: Do you remember who it was?
Aidan: yes, I, of course I do. [00:17:00] That was Jason
Kai: mm-hmm.
wow.
Aidan: Yeah, so he was on there with his wife chatting with Geraldo and saying whatever he was saying.
I ran into, I shouldn't say, ran into, I worked in a restaurant and Jason walked into the restaurant one day after that and I couldn't place him.
Jackal: Mm-hmm.
Aidan: I'm like, I know this guy. Who is he? I know this guy. He's showing zero recognition of me. And here's the interesting part is at some point it clicked. I'm like, and I, I, I knew like, oh, that's the guy that was on tv. And I felt so compelled to tell absolutely everyone I worked with. guy out there having a quiet lunch with his kid in private. And here I am disclosing his story.
Jackal: Wow.
Wow
Aidan: one thought as to whether reasonable thing to do
now
I could be embarrassed or feel ashamed about doing [00:18:00] that.
But the blessing of it is that that's a story that I tell people over and over in my work so that when they do those things that we wish they wouldn't, they can know that I did them too. And that I can, I can, if I can forgive myself, of course, you know, I've got room for you to have these thoughts and desires to disclose, you know, like that compulsion.
I, you know, I basically lived there and did that. So, that back to that show I went, I, I just remember thinking, and I'm gonna file that away.
Jackal: Mm-hmm
Kai: Mm-hmm.
Jackal: Right?
Aidan: Because I can't remember what year it was. Maybe 95 or something, I'm not sure. But I just thought, I don't have room for this in my head. I don't know what to do with this.
And then at some point I started seeing some people, Ja not you yet Jacko, but Kai, [00:19:00] you and, and a few other people who were having some visibility. The, the other piece which you both well know and understand is those conversations about who belongs and who's included and who's excluded, and, and just const constant and, and emotional, really high, high emotionally charged conversations.
Well, we want these people, so let's frame our inclusionary language to scoop them up until tomorrow when we don't feel, when we're cranky at one of them, and then we change it up.
Kai: Oh, what do you remember specific? Can you give us an example?
Aidan: In my community they were every other year producing a conference called Power Surge.
And it needed a statement about who this conference was for. And those debates, I was definitely in those rooms [00:20:00] more listening, observing, and hearing what people had to say. The, the anguish in the room, in those conversations, they were not. Easy conversations. And these were people all of whom I cared about who are thoughtful and loving people.
So I remember in particular another person that we all have in common offered up his home to, for one of these discussions. And I'll never forget it because he's, he opened his home for everyone to come in and have this, have these conversations, debates devil's advocate scenarios, and excused himself from any type of contribution to the conversation and maybe even excused himself from the room.
And I was deeply impressed by that. And I thought also that that feels pretty [00:21:00] wrong.
Kai: How so?
Aidan: Maybe wrong isn't quite the right word on his part. Deeply respectful and generous.
Kai: Mm-hmm.
Aidan: But why not have a say in it?
Jackal: Was he already identifying as trans at the time?
Aidan: I believe so. I'm not sure what, what language he would have used.
Jackal: didn't even have that language back then.
Aidan: Right.
Kai: You're kind of hitting on like our next question about intersectionality. I remember some of the just painful witnessing of those conversations because they're talking about us, they're talking about me, and I was still grappling with my own.
Feelings about what does it mean for me to transition and am I betraying, am I buying into the narrative where I'm betraying womanhood or dykes or whatever, my family, just how I was still coming to terms with being comfortable with calling myself FTM, you know?
Mm-hmm.
And then [00:22:00] hearing people who I love, you're so generous.
You're talking about how thoughtful and kind people were and they're still having these conversations and witnessing that while they work that out publicly.
Jackal: Yeah.
Kai: Those are tough places to be.
Jackal: Yeah, And you know, I remember myself also in the struggle, right, with my own identity and things like that, but having deeply feminist beliefs that women could and should have their own spaces that did not necessarily include us. And, you know, it's just, it having sorrow about that because I didn't wanna lose.
Women who were very, who I was very close to, but at the same time wanting to be respectful of that decision because of the way sexism works in the world. I guess the other flip side of that was wanting them to, okay, it's okay for them to have their own [00:23:00] space, but also embracing me as not the enemy, which was the kind of the language that was used back then.
Because I, I was still the same person and so I still wanted them to love me. And and that was a really hard time and the way those conversations went down was really, was really interesting.
Aidan: Well, having, having those conversations and hearing the things that were painful we're losing our butches.
Jackal: Mm-hmm.
Aidan: Right? The grief that people were feeling the stuff that they were saying and, you know, similarly to you, jackal, of course, Kai, also the. The feminist principles. My mom didn't raise me to to be anything but an empowered person on the planet.
So what do we do with that when, when the desire to create a certain environment is for shorthand sake labeled women only space? And so as I listened and watched the inner tur turbulence I [00:24:00] thought, well, fine, I'm not going anywhere. You don't have to lose me. I'll
Jackal: Mm-hmm.
Aidan: and little did I know what kind of fresh hell I was stepping into by deciding to stay.
And you know, I will have those conversations to this day and feel quite passionately about it because I didn't magically transition into somebody who was all of a sudden unsafe, especially when, you know, a number of those women could kick my ass on any day of the week.
Jackal: hear you.
Aidan: I have, you know, put me in my place at different times, you know, prior to transition when I needed it.
And so I wanted to, I didn't wanna leave either, and they're all saying they're grieving, so guess what? Guess what? One person, you don't have to grieve. I'm gonna stay. And what I, what I did was what I would describe to friends as going to work, which was that women's space that I'd been [00:25:00] so welcomed and loved and part of, and also helped to create.
Just kept going. I kept going to our local still standing Wild Rose lesbian bar as my physical presentation changed and it was not fun. You know, people would have a few drinks and then. They come over to the table and start asking me questions and start grilling me in certain ways. And you know, I actually, you know, segueing to something that I was thinking about with Ukai.
I remember thinking, well, I can't have conversations that are three hours long, which I was doing with person after person. I can't do that with the whole planet here. So I, I pulled together a workshop, a community workshop, and I made little flyers and I went to the Wild Rose, handed 'em out, and people had grabbed that flyer and look at it, look at me, look at it, look at me.
Do the up down, you know, down [00:26:00] look. And, and, and then people came and it was packed. And I think, Kai, you might've been on, on that first panel. And one of the things that you said, I'll never forget, which was your journey with respect to your gender and how, what. How you felt about it was that you just, you know, you were in your chair and you just said, well, I basically went from this to this and you scooted over about an inch.
And that really, really resonated with me because I thought and felt, and to this day, feel and tell my older butch pals, you're the one that paved this road for me. You're the one that showed me to love and value masculinity. That who I was, was beautiful and celebrated. Not something that I should dampen or tone down that there's people out there that think that's really hot.
And, and here we are having crafted this community to do just that, to [00:27:00] celebrate that and then say, oh, but by the way, don't go through that door.
Jackal: Right. I just, I, I just wanna say though just to give you validation, 'cause I've heard it from mutual friends, mutual lesbian friends, that they were really impressed with you staying and not giving up and not giving up on them. And it, I think you helped, you particularly helped move at least some, if not the entire Seattle lesbian community forward in their. Philosophy of how trans masculinity fits into their world of lesbian exclusion is, you know, and I think I just wanna just really, really validate you for that because I think that, you know, we can remember the bad times, but you did so much, and I know lesbians that are very, [00:28:00] very thankful for your tenacity of staying en engaged with them.
So,
Aidan: I wanted to challenge them on their love.
Jackal: yeah,
Aidan: say you love me, so I'm not going anywhere. Right. When we, when we transition, if we're doing a a transition that involves hormones and we have these physical changes. Look in the mirror every day, what do you see? You see the same person. There's, there's, so the, the change is minuscule, but if it's every six months that you see me, well then that's a different story.
And I knew it'd be really easy for people to decide that I had become a different person if they weren't seeing me. that's why, you know, the way, the way I feel about it is like, yeah, well, I, I, I put my body out there
Jackal: yeah.
Yeah, You
Aidan: and
Jackal: heart and soul
Aidan: and you know, we're, we probably know exactly who this one person is, but boy, [00:29:00] she was not happy with me. But when I would see her, I'd just wrap my arms around her like I always did, and hug her and her partner and say, it's great to see you as I moved. And, and she'd be all stiff. I'm like, suck it up, man. I, I just thought, I, what, what's, what's not gonna happen is that you're gonna tell me that I've changed.
I'm just going to be consistent and you are going to have to then decide what you wanna change or not. And it took two years, and one time I saw her coming down the street. I'm like, okay, here we, here we go again. dig deep, Aiden. And, and she said, I've really been wanting to talk to you. I owe you an apology.
Jackal: Wow.
Aidan: I said, oh, what? Tell me you know, I, I don't know. And, and she says, I just realized that if I keep trying to define the world in the way that I think it ought to go, my world's just gonna keep, keep getting smaller and smaller. And she took her hands made a smaller and [00:30:00] smaller box and she said, I don't want that.
And I've been stepping in with a number of younger people and they are giving me their schooling me about gender expansiveness. So. I'm, I'm so grateful for all those experiences and no way would I ever want to go through that again.
Kai: Oh my
God.
Jackal: you
Kai: I, am like sweating, just thinking back to it, because on the one hand, like I felt a sense of loss because I did make a choice to just disengage because I was so uncomfortable and not, didn't like to be in a space where people were like pointing and laughing or talking about me, or, you know, disclosing things about me or asking me if I had a cold, you know?
And I was also grappling with this, wanting to respect women's spaces, right. And where do I fit in? And I didn't have a butch identity. People sometimes put that on me. I think just from thinking about like your persistence and bravery, I think that [00:31:00] wasn't always understood by other trans guys.
Like we could be pretty judgy of each other. So you were probably getting it from both sides, you know? Jackal you're right, Aiden, how you show up is you are showing up as yourself. You all have to adjust around me, you know, and I think that was so incredibly brave.
Jackal: Yeah. it really was
Aidan: Well, like I said, my mom didn't, my mom, my mom didn't raise a wallflower. She, she was such a staunch feminist and she just, she says, you don't let anybody tell you what you can or can't do because of your gender. Of course, she didn't know what I was gonna do with
that
Jackal: Do.
Aidan: information
Jackal: Yeah. Hey, so moving on to our next question. How do you think your social standings, like race or class even, you know, talking about sexuality impacted your decision to transition, your desires, to transition your fears about transitioning?
Aidan: Gosh. I didn't consider those [00:32:00] factors until stepping into it. And it was interesting because because my community, which is predominantly older than me, 15, 20 years older, these women in the Butch Femme community within that community, we had certain conversations and much of that revolved around exploring sexuality. Playing with that playing a bit with, with gender roles. It's so interesting that these women would use you know, Nick nicknames or, or whatever that were masculine and, and all of that.
But. As I worked hard to, to maintain a presence, I also found that there's this group of people that are about 15 ish years younger than me.
Jackal: Hmm.
Aidan: And I, I'm kind of, you know, am I finding a new community if my community [00:33:00] doesn't can't accept me, can't include me? And and all of the things that showed up, for example, in that first conversa community conversation people were bringing in notions of our skin color.
They were bringing in notions of our socioeconomic status. You know, I had, I, it was a time of discovery of how class impacted my life, all the way from growing up being, being in a, a really poor single parent household. And. Those conversations were happening and I was just soaking it up. Race, class ability I can't even remember what.
All right. So knowing that that made my transition experience essentially just mine, it, I mean, with all those variables, it made my experience pretty [00:34:00] unique. And, and not some common ground with the trans male community as a whole, even I, I used the term community loosely because there weren't very many of us.
So what I noticed that was probably at least what comes to mind first, that was one of the most significant, profound transition steps was my relationship to being white.
Jackal: Mm.
Aidan: Like, holy shit. And because I, I stepped in to, to just make change within my community right away all of a sudden I'm getting a label that I don't, that I'm not seeking, and that's uncomfortable for me and that's leader.
Jackal: Hmm.
Aidan: Like, look, I just picked a place and a time and a date and said, let's come, let's talk. I didn't know that leader came with that. So, so, holy [00:35:00] shit. When have being elevated to that and being critiqued for that and, and at times attacked for that paired with my progression towards more and more being perceived and received as a, a man and a white man.
Also of a certain age. I was what, in my mid thirties, I think with a ton of reflection, a ton of, holy crap, what the hell is going on? What I have come to understand is that I became the enemy. I became a representative of the white male patriarchy that we all fought so hard against. And I, I became a very convenient one and a non-threatening one
Jackal: Mm-hmm.
Aidan: because people in their minds, they [00:36:00] know that I'm still me and whatever.
So what I felt was what happened and I, I swapped stories with people across the nation who have, who have those same combination of effects and. Or identities, or experiences in life at that particular time, it was really brutal because the whole community felt comfortable and confident attacking, attacking us as a, again, as representative of what's wrong in the world. I'm just
Kai: out
you know, selling out, doing it to gain access and to just get the package,
to get
like the cis het white, you know, affluent well educated, all those things
Jackal: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
yeah.
Aidan: Yeah. That career as a a, a piece pizza restaurant manager really opened a lot of corporate doors for me. You know.
Jackal: Well, Aiden, we're going to jump off the line here. [00:37:00] Don't hang up. It has been such a gift to reconnect with you.
Aidan: It's been I was looking forward to this forever, so thanks for, thanks for having me on. I'm, this is amazing.
Jackal: thank you.
Reflections
Kai: How are you doing? That was quite, quite a wonderful ways for today. And reconnect with Aiden. How are you doing?
Jackal: Did you just say that was a wonderful waste of a day,
Kai: way to start the day. Funny.
Jackal: You are a little garbled. I know you're not at your typical location, so I'm not, I did hear wrong on that. That was weird. Um, yeah, two hours with Aiden. That was amazing. Like it was really fun to connect and have, memory lane there. What about you? What did you, what did you think?
Kai: We have a long history together.
Jackal: Yeah.
Kai: You know, and it just really brought back a lot of memories that were fabulous and some of them were hard, you know?
Jackal: Yeah.
Kai: And I honestly think, he's one of the most courageous people and tenacious [00:38:00] people. Persons, yeah. Person. Yeah. I dunno. English people. Like just, just the way that he's, the theme, has been that he has just continued to show up,? And I dunno if insert himself as the right way, it's just not disappear.
Again, like our show is called Stealth Trans Podcast and everybody makes decisions about how much or how little they are present or disclosed. And his life has been all about being front and center, you know, out.
Jackal: Yeah, completely.
So when I think about Spectrum, I think, well, okay, the reason I mentioned this is because, we all kind of transitioned around the same time. Like, you know, maybe a year or two earlier or six months earlier, whatever. And Aidan was in that crew, right? So he's definitely one of our litter mates, as we call them.
However, I don't remember him being part of Spectrum. Per se. Right? Because, and I think it was because he was making such a [00:39:00] concentrated effort to stay in the lives of the lesbians in his community and challenge them on this idea of you say you love me, so if you'd stay, say you love me, like let's. Let's keep being friends, let's keep doing this.
And it was, he really did it in a different way. Like he, he did do his transition in a very unique Aiden way compared to like, you know, any of the rest of us, even though we were, you know, kind of challenging the system of like, you know, sexuality and like, you don't have to be stealth and you don't have to be cisgender, or not cisgender, but uh, heterosexual.
Mm-hmm. You know, things like that. He did have a very unique experience because of what he wanted to achieve in his own transition.
Kai: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And it, it's interesting 'cause, the way that he talks about his work with the caregivers of trans and gender expansive, nonconforming kids, [00:40:00] you know, in their transition, it, it's like his continued presence.
It's almost like there's such a caring approach that he has to it and allowing people to just voice their discomfort or experience their emotions in, in his presence without him leaving.
Jackal: Mm-hmm.
Kai: And I also think that's extremely, in some ways, almost confrontational. You know what I mean? If you're gonna continue to show up.
It's, it's there. It evokes a reaction. And if I think about going into a dike space or a dike play party, or a women's only space, and some of the trans men that did that at the time, you know, like that reaction was pretty intense. I mentioned it earlier, I think some of the trans guys were like, I don't understand this.
Why are you doing this? What does that say about you as a trans man? Are you real or not? You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Like, so he is getting it from [00:41:00] both sides. Unless somebody shows up and, and witnesses who we are.
Jackal: Mm-hmm.
Kai: Through his transition, he continued to be the present.
Jackal: Mm-hmm.
Kai: And now he continues to do that with caregivers.
Jackal: Mm-hmm.
Kai: You know, um, and let them experience that whole reckless time and chaos is right. Their children's transition, their family transition. I just think that is a really powerful.
Jackal: Yeah.
Kai: Thing to be doing.
Jackal: Yeah. Totally.
Yeah, I really appreciate you getting in touch with him and making him come on our show and stuff like this.
That was, he was great. Super fun. He was really fun.
Kai: Yeah.
Jackal: Alright, unless you have anything else to say.
Speaker 8: I think our brains are probably just,
Jackal: my brain is kind of mushed.
Kai: Yeah. This massive amount.
Jackal: Yeah. Aiden, I love you. Like, let me just say that and uh, call it good.
Kai: Yeah. Big time. So take care, my brother.
Yeah. And yeah, it's good to see you.
Disclosure Opening
Speaker 5: [00:42:00] And now it's time for adventures and disclosure with Kai and Jackal.
Disclosure Section
Jackal: So you have a disclosure story for us today?
Kai: In fact I do. And I so oftentimes I reflect back and there's things that pop in my head and I think, oh, I need to do that. I need to get in touch with this person ? And when I was 15 in high school, a freshman I had a nickname. My nickname was. Then my nickname was also a freshman, and I, I, people knew my name assigned to birth, but I usually went by a nickname.
I went by red or freshman. And during that time I had a coach, and this coach was named Mr. C, coach C, and he was. Someone who was lifesaving for me. I mean, he gave us jobs, he coached us to be athletes and better athletes. He taught me a love of running. I had to [00:43:00] run laps 'cause I got in trouble a lot.
But you know, he loved to run.
Jackal: imagine that 'cause you seem like such a goody two shoes.
Kai: No, I, no. And, he and he also just was a really good guy. He like I mean in addition to jobs, he just taught us about, I think he was a good role model of masculinity. He was a little odd, a little quirky. He was short, he expressed himself and his emotions and he just did right.
He coached girls high school, and he was really, really important to me. And he was somebody I stayed connected with from age 15. We, he gave us jobs during the summer, in the spring and up until I was like 21 or 22. And then I moved away and I lost contact with him. And as I transitioned, I thought, wow, I, I really didn't think about contacting people from my past, especially my high school.
I did not have a good experience in high school and, aside from the sports. And so I decided that I was finally gonna write [00:44:00] him a letter, send him a card. I've been thinking about it for years and I was like, I better fucking do it. 'cause I don't know how long he's gonna be around.
So I just Googled him and I found the address that I recognized, and I sent him a letter and I just said, okay, how do I do this? Right? And I just said, Hey, back in the day you knew me as red or freshmen and I just wanted to write this letter to thank you so much because of these things?
And I said, I transitioned in the mid nineties, and I, one of the things I said was, you know. Going to this school in this place was really difficult for me, you know? And then I said, I transitioned the rah, and then I'm living a really good life and I'm well loved, and I know you are, and you were such a big part of my formative years kind of thing.
So I just thanked him,? And it felt really. Really nice and I don't expect anything in return. And he who knows, you know, he may rip up the card or not, but how many times do people actually like go back and thank you for something, or express appreciation in [00:45:00] general, but. Hopefully he will see it from it.
Is that just, I loved him. He was so important. At a time when home was horrible, you know, school was horrible. I was like, not treated well, you know? And that was the thing that he was just an important person for me and a mentor and a really good role model of masculinity. So, yeah, that's disclosure story.
Jackal: That's a beautiful story. It just reiterates what a sweetheart you are. hope you get a letter back from him, but you know, that's not the
point
Kai: even, yeah, I don't even know if he is able to read, you
Jackal: Right,
You
Kai: I dunno. I mean he's probably, well, I don't wanna be sound ageist. I mean, we're already old, but it's like he's older than me by 20 years, so hopefully Yeah, hopefully it'll find him. Well, yeah, yeah. Hopefully it'll find him well and, and maybe it's something that will touch his heart, you know?
'cause he had a big heart. So that's my story.
Jackal: that's a beautiful story. Thanks, Kai.
Ad STP Members
Kai: [00:46:00] Jackal and I wanna remind our listeners that we have a member section. And thanks to everyone who has subscribed, our member section offers bonus questions and personal stories by our volunteers, Adam, and our newest edition Lina. A Bipoc Trans Mask sibling Exploring Adventures in Transition.
Jackal: Subscribing to our podcast helps keep us up and running. Or if you just wanna support us by giving a donation, we sincerely appreciate it. It's only $4 a month to become a member, so go to transmasculine podcast.com and sign up. We don't wanna be gatekeepers. So if you feel that you can't afford $4 per month, please reach out to us via email, transmasculine podcast@gmail.com considering buying a T-shirt while you're there.
Or if you wanna be cool, like Mic Alina and Adam, we especially need a volunteer to handle our social [00:47:00] media.
Closing Credits
Kai: Good job today, jackal.
Jackal: Good job to you, Kai. We want to thank our listeners and especially our guests. This show would be nothing without our guests who share their insight, expertise, and heartfelt stories. We absolutely adore you and are forever grateful to you.
Kai: Stealth captures the living history of men of trans experience.
We recognize that language has its limitations. The words we use to describe ourselves and our community evolve over time and will not represent everyone's experience. We also want you to know that the health and wellbeing of our community is our number one priority.
Jackal: We want to give a shout out to parents who are supporting their gender non-conforming kids.
We support you and love you for supporting your kids. We want to put our podcast in the spotlight. Thanks for not trolling us, but really is this just another form of trans mask and visibility?
Kai: We offer links to health and safety resources on our [00:48:00] website. We monitor our social media platforms. We respond to feedback from our audience, and we will be accountable when we screw up.
Jackal: We want you to know that we are just two guys doing this in our spare time and two old farts to boot. The opinions expressed are our own and those of our guests. We do not represent any entity outside of this podcast.
Kai: Remember, if you're interested in sharing your story, we would love to hear from you.
Also, if you're interested in volunteering, please let us know. Your feedback and support are essential to our show's success. Help us get the word out about our podcast. Tell your friends, share on social media, and rate us on your favorite streaming platform. Be sure to check out our website, transmasculine podcast.com.
Jackal: Thank you for joining us Until next time.